Weak Brakes - 00' Dodge Intrepid

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Aaron Michaels

I have a 2000 Dodge Intrepid R/T w/ the performance brake package
(standard on R/T). I just replaced my front brake pads with new Mopar
OEM pads at 67,000 miles. I had no pulsation in the steering wheel and
the car did not pull or exhibit any adverse braking habits so I elected
not to have the rotors turned when I put on the new shoes on at the
advice of my dealer. Since I drive in a very uncongested area, the need
for panic stops is rare. A few days ago, a panic stop was required from
70MPH. With full pedal, the car decelerated rapidly, but the ABS did
not engage nor did the wheels feel anywhere close to a lock up
condition. (I am an emergency vehicle driving instructor and spend many
hours w/ locked up wheels *smile*)

Since panic stops are rare, and my last panic stop that I can remember
was over 2 years ago, I don't know how long this condition has existed.
Since the rotors weren't turned when I replaced the shoes (67,000
miles), could they be glazed over enough to only exhibit poor braking
symptoms during a panic stop? The Factory Service Manual doesn't
endorse this theory and states in the troubleshooting table on page
5-12 "Excessive Pedal Travel (Pedal goes to floor - can't skid
wheels)......Cause: Power brake booster runout (vacuum assist)".

I am in a dilemma. My problem may very well be with the Power Brake
Booster. At the same time, all other braking besides a panic stop seems
normal for a typical Dodge (spongy pedal) vehicle. Since my rotors were
not turned, should I try that first? What is the likelihood that
glazing is the problem? The FSM doesn't list glazing of the rotors as a
diagnosis of the pedal going to the floor and the wheels not skidding.
It lists glazing of the brake rotors under "excessive pedal
effort"...Any suggestions as to where to start would be greatly
appreciated.

Aaron
 
Aaron said:
I have a 2000 Dodge Intrepid R/T w/ the performance brake package
(standard on R/T). I just replaced my front brake pads with new Mopar
OEM pads at 67,000 miles. I had no pulsation in the steering wheel and
the car did not pull or exhibit any adverse braking habits so I elected
not to have the rotors turned when I put on the new shoes on at the
advice of my dealer. Since I drive in a very uncongested area, the need
for panic stops is rare. A few days ago, a panic stop was required from
70MPH. With full pedal, the car decelerated rapidly, but the ABS did
not engage nor did the wheels feel anywhere close to a lock up
condition. (I am an emergency vehicle driving instructor and spend many
hours w/ locked up wheels *smile*)

Since panic stops are rare, and my last panic stop that I can remember
was over 2 years ago, I don't know how long this condition has existed.
Since the rotors weren't turned when I replaced the shoes (67,000
miles), could they be glazed over enough to only exhibit poor braking
symptoms during a panic stop? The Factory Service Manual doesn't
endorse this theory and states in the troubleshooting table on page
5-12 "Excessive Pedal Travel (Pedal goes to floor - can't skid
wheels)......Cause: Power brake booster runout (vacuum assist)".

I am in a dilemma. My problem may very well be with the Power Brake
Booster. At the same time, all other braking besides a panic stop seems
normal for a typical Dodge (spongy pedal) vehicle. Since my rotors were
not turned, should I try that first? What is the likelihood that
glazing is the problem? The FSM doesn't list glazing of the rotors as a
diagnosis of the pedal going to the floor and the wheels not skidding.
It lists glazing of the brake rotors under "excessive pedal
effort"...Any suggestions as to where to start would be greatly
appreciated.

Aaron
Click to expand...

There was a post a few weeks ago on the 300M ezBoard that was
complaining of ineffective brakes. After getting some advice from the
forum participants, he checked the front rotors and found that they were
in fact heavily glazed. He replaced them, and the problem went away.
Not saying this is necessarily your problem, but that was one case of
alleged glazing.

For what turning them costs, you might just get new rotors (I recommend
NAPA P/N 86777, which are Raybestos PHP/R/T rotors re-boxed as NAPA's
in-house United Brake brand). At 67,000 miles on your rotors, you won't
be losing much if the rotors aren't the problem.

Don't forget to properly bed the pads in.

One more comment:
You may not be aware, but, the Chrysler dealers sell 2 levels of brake
pads - one called the Value Line, and the others are the factory
original pads. Unless you insist on the factory original type, they
will sell you the Value Line and let you assume they are the original
type. IOW, what you got are likely the Value Line unless you
specifically know otherwise. Not saying there's anything wrong with
them - actualy some people prefer them - I've seen claims of good
performance and much less dust than the factory originals.

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with "x")
 
There was a post a few weeks ago on the 300M ezBoard that was
complaining of ineffective brakes. After getting some advice from the
forum participants, he checked the front rotors and found that they were
in fact heavily glazed. He replaced them, and the problem went away.
Not saying this is necessarily your problem, but that was one case of
alleged glazing.

For what turning them costs, you might just get new rotors (I recommend
NAPA P/N 86777, which are Raybestos PHP/R/T rotors re-boxed as NAPA's
in-house United Brake brand). At 67,000 miles on your rotors, you won't
be losing much if the rotors aren't the problem.

Don't forget to properly bed the pads in.

One more comment:
You may not be aware, but, the Chrysler dealers sell 2 levels of brake
pads - one called the Value Line, and the others are the factory
original pads. Unless you insist on the factory original type, they
will sell you the Value Line and let you assume they are the original
type. IOW, what you got are likely the Value Line unless you
specifically know otherwise. Not saying there's anything wrong with
them - actualy some people prefer them - I've seen claims of good
performance and much less dust than the factory originals.

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with "x")
Click to expand...

Great information Bill and thanks for posting it!!!

FWIW I have found the brakes in my 2000 Caravan (non ABS) to be way
underpowered and I just replaced the pads at 27k with Bendix "lifetime"
versions.
Stopping power still stinks however.

One thing I don't like about the Bendix pads is that they smell and get
real hot for the first couple of days.
Normally I would have thought of a stuck caliper, but I have had the same
results with 3 different cars I have used them on. After a week or so they
don't stink and don't get hot anymore.

One good thing is you just bring them in when worn and you get new ones for
free.
 
I am in a dilemma. My problem may very well be with the Power Brake
Booster. At the same time, all other braking besides a panic stop seems
normal for a typical Dodge (spongy pedal) vehicle. Since my rotors were
not turned, should I try that first? What is the likelihood that
glazing is the problem? The FSM doesn't list glazing of the rotors as a
diagnosis of the pedal going to the floor and the wheels not skidding.
It lists glazing of the brake rotors under "excessive pedal
effort"...Any suggestions as to where to start would be greatly
appreciated.

Aaron
Bad master Cyl, contaminated brake fluid, air in brake lines or soft
Click to expand...
rubber hoses in the brake line. There are rubber hoses (aprox 1 foot) at
each wheel. These can get soft and expand reducing the force getting to the
wheel.
 
... my 2000 Caravan (non ABS)
Click to expand...

? ABS isin't standard these days?

Heck, even my 2001 2WD ram had ABS standard on the rear wheels.
Chrysler hasn't made ABS standard on their ubiquitous minivans yet?
 
Great information Bill and thanks for posting it!!!

FWIW I have found the brakes in my 2000 Caravan (non ABS) to be way
underpowered and I just replaced the pads at 27k with Bendix "lifetime"
versions.
Stopping power still stinks however.
Click to expand...

Underpowered in what sense? I just read the latest minivan test in CR
and the Chrysler vans were among the best in stopping distance. I don't
know if they check fade resistance, but I assume you mean stopping
distance when you talk about the "power" of the brakes. A minivan will
never stop with a BMW 5 series if that is what you are expecting...

One thing I don't like about the Bendix pads is that they smell and get
real hot for the first couple of days.
Click to expand...

Most pad makers specify a break-in regimen that says not to make hard
stops the first few hundred miles. If you are getting them hot enough
to stink early on, then you are likely glazing the pads and no wonder
you don't have good braking after that.

Normally I would have thought of a stuck caliper, but I have had the same
results with 3 different cars I have used them on. After a week or so they
don't stink and don't get hot anymore.
Click to expand...

Quite possibly because they've been glazed so heavily that they can't
develop enough friction to get hot anymore. I think your brake problem
is visible in the mirror.


Matt
 
Matthew S. Whiting said:
...Most pad makers specify a break-in regimen that says not to make hard
stops the first few hundred miles. If you are getting them hot enough
to stink early on, then you are likely glazing the pads and no wonder
you don't have good braking after that.
Click to expand...

The typical bedding-in process specified by the pad manufacturers
intentionally heats the pads up pretty good and IIRC ends with making a
relatively hard stop from 50 mph or so.

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with "x")
 
Bill said:
The typical bedding-in process specified by the pad manufacturers
intentionally heats the pads up pretty good and IIRC ends with making a
relatively hard stop from 50 mph or so.
Click to expand...

I've seen a variety of recommendations depending on type of pad
material. Some recommend light usage for a few hundred miles with
gradually increasingly hard stops. This is the case with the pads I
just installed on my motorcycle. Some recommend you go out and make
several stops in succession with each stop harder than the last until
you are making near threshold stops after 10-20 stops. Some recommend
cooling between each stop, some don't.

However, I don't know of any pads that recommend that the first few
stops be hard stops, which is what many people do when they get new pads
and/or rotors. People who brake hard and abuse their brakes tend to do
it ALL the time. Doing this with new pads will often ruin them for
life. That was my point.


Matt
 
Underpowered in what sense? I just read the latest minivan test in CR
and the Chrysler vans were among the best in stopping distance. I don't
know if they check fade resistance, but I assume you mean stopping
distance when you talk about the "power" of the brakes. A minivan will
never stop with a BMW 5 series if that is what you are expecting...
Click to expand...

You are comparing apples and oranges Sherlock.


You are comparing a 2003 or maybe 2004 Caravan to a 2000 Caravan and quite
possibly one of the 4 wheel disc brake models (Consumers tends to test the
top of the line models) to mine which is front disc rear drum.

The vans got a redesign in 2001 and the brakes were improved.

http://www.allpar.com/model/minivans2001.html

A snippet from that article:

"Driving Improvements for the 2001 Chrysler mini vans
Head lamps provide an 80 percent improvement in lighting
Brake rotors and calipers are larger and improved
Engine and accessory changes increase the power and torque of the 3.3- and
3.8-liter engines while also improving engine sound quality and overall
noise level etc.................... "



The brakes just don't bring the van to a stop as quickly as I feel they
should.

These people seem to agree:
http://auto.consumerguide.com/auto/new/reviews/full/index.cfm/id/23197.htm

I have a 92 Caprice, not known for it's great brakes as well as a 2003
Jetta and both stop much better than the Caravan.

Nothing is wrong with the system BTW.
Most pad makers specify a break-in regimen that says not to make hard
stops the first few hundred miles. If you are getting them hot enough
to stink early on, then you are likely glazing the pads and no wonder
you don't have good braking after that.
Click to expand...

Wrong....
Read Bill's response.
FWIW they smell just driving around normally, for a week or so.
Pads are not glazed at all and it's a little difficult to over drive a mini
van :)
Quite possibly because they've been glazed so heavily that they can't
develop enough friction to get hot anymore. I think your brake problem
is visible in the mirror.
Click to expand...

Wrong again Sherlock.

I think you need to read the instructions that come with your pads.
Or if you are the type that doesn't need to read instructions (and I
suspect you are), you can start here:

http://www.a-1brakes.com/Bendix/brake_products/
http://www.accidentreconstruction.com/news/sep99/091599d.html

A snippet from the article:

"Bendix products continue to be among the top contenders in the brake
industry. AlliedSignal recently introduced three significant Bendix
products to the aftermarket. The patented Bendix® TitaniuMetallic(TM) disc
brake pads provide superior out-of-the-box braking without the traditional
break-in period. They were voted among the Top Ten Products of 1999 by
Undercar Digest. Also an award-winning product, Bendix® Import Quiet (IQ)
disc brake pads have virtually eliminated the squeaks associated with some
brakes. Finally, fleet, sport-utility vehicle, and minivan drivers can now
enjoy smooth stopping both on- and off-road, and in even the most grueling
temperatures, as a result of Bendix® MetLok(TM) brake pads developed
exclusively to meet the needs of these vehicles."


Next time do your homework properly before you post.

Matt
Click to expand...

psycho
 
I've seen a variety of recommendations depending on type of pad
material. Some recommend light usage for a few hundred miles with
gradually increasingly hard stops. This is the case with the pads I
just installed on my motorcycle. Some recommend you go out and make
several stops in succession with each stop harder than the last until
you are making near threshold stops after 10-20 stops. Some recommend
cooling between each stop, some don't.

However, I don't know of any pads that recommend that the first few
stops be hard stops, which is what many people do when they get new pads
and/or rotors. People who brake hard and abuse their brakes tend to do
it ALL the time. Doing this with new pads will often ruin them for
life. That was my point.
Click to expand...

I agree with what you are saying Matt, but in my case it's just normal
braking and the Bendix don't require any break in so it's a moot point
anyway.

Again it depends upon the type of pad.
Matt
Click to expand...

Here is a good site that backs everybody's opinion up, depending upon the
type of pad:

http://www.kitcarbooks.com/brakepads.html

Here is another:
http://www.rpmnet.com/techart/pad_proc.shtml#proc

See that, everybody is right :)
psycho
 
You are comparing apples and oranges Sherlock.


You are comparing a 2003 or maybe 2004 Caravan to a 2000 Caravan and quite
possibly one of the 4 wheel disc brake models (Consumers tends to test the
top of the line models) to mine which is front disc rear drum.
Click to expand...

That's true possibly, but my 1996 GV has the same brakes as yours and
mine stops just fine.

The vans got a redesign in 2001 and the brakes were improved.

http://www.allpar.com/model/minivans2001.html

A snippet from that article:

"Driving Improvements for the 2001 Chrysler mini vans
Head lamps provide an 80 percent improvement in lighting
Brake rotors and calipers are larger and improved
Engine and accessory changes increase the power and torque of the 3.3- and
3.8-liter engines while also improving engine sound quality and overall
noise level etc.................... "



The brakes just don't bring the van to a stop as quickly as I feel they
should.
Click to expand...

What is your stopping distance from 60 MPH? What do you think it should
be? Is your ABS working properly?

These people seem to agree:
http://auto.consumerguide.com/auto/new/reviews/full/index.cfm/id/23197.htm

I have a 92 Caprice, not known for it's great brakes as well as a 2003
Jetta and both stop much better than the Caravan.
Click to expand...

I'm not familiar with the Caprice, but having a Jetta outstop a minivan
isn't a surprise at all. Talk about comparing apples to oranges.

Nothing is wrong with the system BTW.
Click to expand...

Then why are you complaining?

Wrong....
Read Bill's response.
FWIW they smell just driving around normally, for a week or so.
Pads are not glazed at all and it's a little difficult to over drive a mini
van :)
Click to expand...

Sure it is. Just always start braking 100' before the stoplight when
you are traveling 55 MPH. I see lots of people who drive like this
routinely. Don't ask me why. They are usually the ones that floor it
when the light turns green, stomp on the brakes when the next light
turns red, and are sitting there impatiently waiting as I gradually slow
down beside them before the light turns green. Funny how we both make
the same progress, but I do it with much less gas and brake dust on the
front wheels.
Wrong again Sherlock.

I think you need to read the instructions that come with your pads.
Or if you are the type that doesn't need to read instructions (and I
suspect you are), you can start here:

http://www.a-1brakes.com/Bendix/brake_products/
http://www.accidentreconstruction.com/news/sep99/091599d.html

A snippet from the article:

"Bendix products continue to be among the top contenders in the brake
industry. AlliedSignal recently introduced three significant Bendix
products to the aftermarket. The patented Bendix® TitaniuMetallic(TM) disc
brake pads provide superior out-of-the-box braking without the traditional
break-in period. They were voted among the Top Ten Products of 1999 by
Undercar Digest. Also an award-winning product, Bendix® Import Quiet (IQ)
disc brake pads have virtually eliminated the squeaks associated with some
brakes. Finally, fleet, sport-utility vehicle, and minivan drivers can now
enjoy smooth stopping both on- and off-road, and in even the most grueling
temperatures, as a result of Bendix® MetLok(TM) brake pads developed
exclusively to meet the needs of these vehicles."


Next time do your homework properly before you post.
Click to expand...

I did. I found several links to break-in procedures and the one you
found is the only one I've seen that doesn't require a break in. So are
you using these exact pads?


Matt
 
You're not reading again.
Like I said the first time my brakes are non ABS.
Everything is working fine, they just feel underpowered. As for my 60 mph
stopping distance, I dunno, I've never jammed them on. Subjectivly speaking
they just don't seem to have the "oomph" that other cars I have driven
have.
Click to expand...

OK, pretty hard to troubleshoot a "feeling" problem.

Matt
 
Nothing you can say, because you don't have any data to back up anything.

Matt
Click to expand...

I suggest you actually drive a 2003 and compare for yourself instead of
reading about it in Consumer Reports.
Manufacturers don't upgrade braking systems (ie:make them larger) because
their is nothing wrong with the current versions. The idea is to make
things cheaper so there is more profit.
I have driven a 2003 and it is significantly better at braking than my 2000
or my companies van, maintained by Dodge, which is a 1999.
 
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