Valvoline Transmission Fluid ATF+3 Chrysler Approved?

Discussion in 'General Motoring' started by Rick Yerke, Sep 5, 2005.

  1. Rick Yerke

    Rick Yerke Guest

    I was at a Napa auto parts store recently and saw Valvoline ATF+3 transmission
    fluid.It says it eliminates trainy shudder.I looked on the back and it says it
    is Chrysler approved for Chrysler transmissions.I thought only Chrysler`s own
    fluid was approved for their transmissions.

    ÐÏࡱáÿýÿÿÿþÿÿÿþÿÿÿžÑ¤XTod(" žÑ¤
     
    Rick Yerke, Sep 5, 2005
    #1
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  2. Rick Yerke

    Bill Putney Guest

    ATF+3 has been available thru aftermarket for some time. The later (and
    better) fluid is ATF+4 - which up until this month *was* only available
    thru DC. There was a press release in August from DC saying that ATF+4
    is licensed for aftermarket sale starting this month.

    Bill Putney
    (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
    address with the letter 'x')
     
    Bill Putney, Sep 5, 2005
    #2
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  3. Rick Yerke

    Sven Guest

    BTW: in Germany DC gave out a warning to their dealers NOT to mix ATF+3
    and ATF+4! So if you run ATF+3 you need to stick to it or you have to do
    a complete tranny flush with ATF+4.

    Sven
     
    Sven, Sep 5, 2005
    #3
  4. Rick Yerke

    Bob Shuman Guest

    I have 1996 and 1999 Chrysler vehicles that both came from the factory with
    ATF+3. I've changed the fluid in both using drop the pan and replace the
    fluid and filter method 2 times each (30 and 60K miles) and both times
    I've used ATF+4. I know this does not prove much, but I've suffered no ill
    effects on wither vehicle. As I recall, (the synthetic or semi-synthetic)
    AT+4 gallon container stated it could be mixed with ATF+3.

    I'd like to understand why they issued the warning and if it was for any
    good reason, or just to charge more to require the flush first.

    Bob
     
    Bob Shuman, Sep 5, 2005
    #4
  5. Rick Yerke

    Bill Putney Guest

    FWIW, the DC TSB No. 21-004-04 says: "NOTE :ATF+4(R) is compatible with
    ATF+3 and ATF+2. ATF+4(R) can be used to top off vehicles that currently
    have ATF+2 or ATF+3. Do not use ATF+2 or ATF+3 to top off vehicles that
    have ATF+4(R) fluid."

    Bill Putney
    (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
    address with the letter 'x')
     
    Bill Putney, Sep 6, 2005
    #5
  6. Rick Yerke

    Steve Guest


    Bullfeathers. ATF+4 and ATF+3 are entirely compatible. In fact, +4
    supercedes +3. The only "no no" is that you shouldn't use +3 in a
    transmission designed for +4, but the other way around works fine.
     
    Steve, Sep 6, 2005
    #6
  7. Rick Yerke

    Sven Guest

    Hi Bob,

    From DC:

    Quote:

    TSB-NUMBER: 21-004-04
    Date: March 16, 2004

    THIS BULLETIN SUPERSEDES TECHNICAL SERVICE BULLETIN 21-006-01, DATED
    JUNE 29, 2001.

    (...)

    DISCUSSION:
    A new transmission fluid (ATF +4 - Type 9602) has been developed and is
    being used as a factory fill in the above models. **Plants that build
    rear wheel drive models (other than Prowler) will introduce ATF +4
    throughout the 2000 calendar year.** This Technical Service Bulletin
    will be updated as additional models are introduced to ATF +4.

    (...)

    NOTE: ATF +4 MUST ALWAYS BE USED IN VEHICLES THAT WERE ORIGINALLY FILLED
    WITH ATF +4. USING ATF +3 IN THESE VEHICLES WILL DECREASE THE BENEFITS
    OF THIS NEW FLUID.

    AT THIS TIME, VEHICLES ORIGINALLY FILLED WITH ATF +2 OR ATF +3 SHOULD
    CONTINUE TO BE SERVICED WITH ATF +3 - TYPE 7176.

    (...)

    unquote


    Major difference from what I can see between +3 and +4 seems to be that
    +4 is thinner than +3 as it is semi-synth.

    Filling +4 does not necessarily mean that it will kill your tranny, but
    DC does NOT recommend it. Apart from this, some should even run fine
    on Dexron III...

    Here the problem might be more severe as the tranny has to stand higher
    speeds on the Autobahn and therefore higher temp than at yours. Here 80
    mph is the official "recommended" average speed for the Autobahn...

    Personally I would NOT fill +4 in a +3 tranny - and especially not mix it.

    Sven
     
    Sven, Sep 6, 2005
    #7
  8. Rick Yerke

    Sven Guest

    You should read tru it to the bottom! Did it for you, see above.

    Sven
     
    Sven, Sep 6, 2005
    #8
  9. Rick Yerke

    Sven Guest

    What does
    mean?
     
    Sven, Sep 6, 2005
    #9
  10. Rick Yerke

    Steve Guest

    It means "incorrect information." A more polite expression than
    "bullsh*t," which means pretty much the same thing.
     
    Steve, Sep 6, 2005
    #10
  11. Rick Yerke

    Steve Guest

    Look at the dates. The TSB you quoted is a 2001 TSB- outdated. The later
    TSB says that ATF+4 can be used in cars built for ATF+3.
     
    Steve, Sep 6, 2005
    #11
  12. Rick Yerke

    Sven Guest

    It WAS taken out of the DC TSB No. 21-004-04. Unless you say that DC
    always fully quotes OLD TSB in the NEW ones without stating this, I take
    it for the latest info.

    Here is the text again, with some highlights:

    =====================
    TSB-NUMBER: 21-004-04
    =====================

    Date: March 16, 2004


    ** THIS BULLETIN ** (means the one which as well has the text below)
    SUPERSEDES TECHNICAL SERVICE BULLETIN 21-006-01, DATED JUNE 29, 2001.

    (...)

    DISCUSSION:
    A new transmission fluid (ATF +4 - Type 9602) has been developed and is
    being used as a factory fill in the above models. **Plants that build
    rear wheel drive models (other than Prowler) will introduce ATF +4
    throughout the 2000 calendar year.** This Technical Service Bulletin
    will be updated as additional models are introduced to ATF +4.

    (...)

    NOTE: ATF +4 MUST ALWAYS BE USED IN VEHICLES THAT WERE ORIGINALLY FILLED
    WITH ATF +4. USING ATF +3 IN THESE VEHICLES WILL DECREASE THE BENEFITS
    OF THIS NEW FLUID.

    AT THIS TIME, VEHICLES ORIGINALLY FILLED WITH ATF +2 OR ATF +3 SHOULD
    CONTINUE TO BE SERVICED WITH ATF +3 - TYPE 7176.

    Sven

    p.s.: thanks for the bullshit. If you want to be impolite, "just do it"
    and do not try to beat around the bush.
     
    Sven, Sep 6, 2005
    #12
  13. Rick Yerke

    Bill Putney Guest

    Why do you chose to ignore what I already quoted from the TSB that you
    are only partially quoting. Here it is again:
    "NOTE :ATF+4(R) is compatible with ATF+3 and ATF+2. ATF+4(R) can be used
    to top off vehicles that currently have ATF+2 or ATF+3. Do not use ATF+2
    or ATF+3 to top off vehicles that have ATF+4(R) fluid."

    Much of the stuff you quoted is *NOT* in the TSB 21-004-04 that I have
    access. For your reference, below my signature in this post, I have
    pasted the *full* *text* of the TSB 21-004-04 (the only thing missing is
    the table of vehiclesa and a one-line table giving the MOPAR part number
    for the ATF+4).

    Bill Putney
    (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
    address with the letter 'x')

    *
    *
    *
    ****FULL TEXT OF TSB 21-004-04 FOLLOWS****
    *
    *
    *

    A/T - ATF Usage List

    NUMBER: 21-004-04

    GROUP: Transmission

    DATE: March 16, 2004

    THIS BULLETIN SUPERSEDES TECHNICAL SERVICE BULLETIN 21-006-01, DATED
    JUNE 29, 2001, WHICH SHOULD BE REMOVED FROM YOUR FILES. THIS IS A
    COMPLETE REVISION AND NO ASTERISKS HAVE BEEN ADDED TO HIGHLIGHT REVISIONS.

    SUBJECT:
    Automatic Transmission Fluid Usage ATF+4 (Type 9602)

    MODELS:

    NOTE : This bulletin applies to all transmissions manufactured by
    Chrysler except for 1999 and earlier minivans with the 41TE/AE
    transmission. This Service Bulletin DOES NOT apply to all AWD
    transmissions, Sprinter transmissions, Crossfire transmissions and WG
    bodies equipped with a W5J400 or NAGI transmission (sales code DGJ).

    DISCUSSION:

    A new transmission fluid (ATF+4(R) - Type 9602) has been developed and
    is being used as factory fill for all vehicles with Chrysler automatic
    transmissions. It is recommended that all vehicles with Chrysler
    automatic transmissions EXCEPT FOR THOSE LISTED ABOVE be serviced with
    ATF+4(R).

    NOTE :ATF+4(R) must always be used in vehicles that were originally
    filled with ATF+4(R).

    NOTE :Service intervals do not change. The service interval currently in
    effect for a given vehicle should continue to be followed.

    NOTE :ATF+4(R) is compatible with ATF+3 and ATF+2. ATF+4(R) can be used
    to top off vehicles that currently have ATF+2 or ATF+3. Do not use ATF+2
    or ATF+3 to top off vehicles that have ATF+4(R) fluid.

    BENEFITS

    ^ Better anti-wear properties

    ^ Improved rust/corrosion prevention

    ^ Controls oxidation

    ^ Eliminates deposits

    ^ Controls friction

    ^ Retains anti-foaming properties

    ^ Superior properties for low temperature operation


    FLUID COLOR

    Mopar ATF+4(R) is a World Class Fluid having exceptional durability.
    However, the red dye used in ATF+4(R) is not permanent; as the fluid
    ages it may become darker or appear brown in color. ATF+4(R) also has a
    unique odor that may change with age. With ATF+4(R) fluid, color and
    odor are no longer indicators of fluid condition and do not support a
    fluid change.

    PARTS REQUIRED:

    POLICY:
    Information Only

    Disclaimer :This bulletin is supplied as technical information only and
    is not an authorization for repair.
     
    Bill Putney, Sep 6, 2005
    #13
  14. Rick Yerke

    Steve Guest

    Its still incorrect. A TSB stating that ATF+4 is backward-compatible has
    been quoted here many times in the past year or so.
     
    Steve, Sep 6, 2005
    #14
  15. Rick Yerke

    Bill Putney Guest

    See my post just above this one - I quote the TSB in its entirety
    (nothing except tables left out).

    Bill Putney
    (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
    address with the letter 'x')
     
    Bill Putney, Sep 6, 2005
    #15
  16. Jolly good, that makes one of you. The rest of us, who can actually read
    what DC writes on the topic and understand the concept of later
    information superseding earlier information, will carry on using +4 in all
    those transmissions for which DC currently recommends it, which means
    virtually all transmissions originally filled with ATF+, ATF+2, and ATF+3.
     
    Daniel J. Stern, Sep 7, 2005
    #16
  17. It means you don't know what you're talking about.
     
    Daniel J. Stern, Sep 7, 2005
    #17
  18. Rick Yerke

    Sven Guest

    So we have 2 TSB's? From which my text was taken, can you compare this?
    Full quote below.

    Here DC apparently ordered dealers to completely flush trannys where
    they filled in ATF+4 on top of ATF+3.

    And which service intervals would you go for with ATF+4?

    Sven

    Here is what I have:
    ====================

    TSB-NUMBER: 21-004-04
    Date: March 16, 2004

    THIS BULLETIN SUPERSEDES TECHNICAL SERVICE BULLETIN 21-006-01, DATED
    JUNE 29, 2001.

    GROUP: Transmission

    SUBJECT: Automatic Transmission Fluid Usage ATF+4 (Type 9602)

    MODELS:
    1989 - 1995 (AA) Spirit/Acclaim/Lebaron Sedan
    1989 - 2003 (AB) Ram Van/Wagon
    1989 - 1993 (AC) Dynasty/New Yorker/New Yorker Salon
    1989 - 1993 (AD) Ram Truck
    1989 - 1994 (AG) Daytona
    1989 (AH) Lancer/Lebaron GTS
    1989 - 1995 (AJ) Lebaron Coupe/Lebaron Convertible
    1989 - 1990 (AK) Aries/Reliant
    1989 - 1990 (AL) Horizon/Omni
    1989 (AM) Diplomat/Gran Fury/New Yorker fifth Avenue
    1989 - 2004 (AN) Dakota
    1989 - 1994 (AP) Shadow/Sundance
    1990 - 1991 (AQ) Maserati
    1990 - 1993 (AY) Imperial/New Yorker Fifth Avenue
    1994 - 2003 (BR/BE) Ram Truck
    2004 - 2005 (CS) Pacifica
    1998 - 2003 (DN) Durango
    2002 - 2004 (DR) Ram Truck
    1995 - 2000 (FJ) Sebring/Avenger/Talon
    2000 (GS) Chrysler Voyager (International Market)
    2004 (HB) Durango
    1995 - 2000 (JA) Cirrus/Stratus/Breeze
    2001- 2004 (JR) Sebring Sedan & Convertible/Stratus Sedan
    1996 - 2000 (JX) Sebring Convertible
    2002 - 2004 (KJ) Liberty
    1993 - 2004 (LH) Concorde/Intrepid/Vision/LHS/New Yorker /300M
    2005 (LX) Chrysler 300/Magnum
    2000 (NS) Town & Country/Caravan/Voyager
    1995 - 2004 (PL) Neon
    2002 - 2003 (PG) PT Cruiser (International Markets)
    2001 - 2005 (PT) PT Cruiser
    1997 - 2002 (PR) Prowler
    2001 - 2005 (RG) Chrysler Voyager (International Markets)
    2001 - 2005 (RS) Town & Country/Caravan/Voyager
    1997 - 2004 (TJ) Wrangler
    2001 - 2004 (WG) Grand Cherokee (International Markets)
    1999 - 2004 (WJ) Grand Cherokee
    1989 - 1995 (YJ) Wrangler
    1996 - 1998 (ZG) Grand Cherokee (International Markets)
    1994 - 1998 (ZJ) Grand Cherokee/Grand Wagoneer

    NOTE: This bulletin applies to all transmissions manufactured by
    Chrysler except for 1999 and earlier minivans with the 41TE/AE
    transmission , This Service Bulletin DOES NOT apply to all AW-4
    transmissions, Sprinter transmissions, Crossfire transmissions and WG
    bodies equipped with a 5J400 or NAG1 transmission (sales code DGJ).

    DISCUSSION:
    A new transmission fluid (ATF+4® - Type 9602) has been developed and is
    being used as factory fill for all vehicles with Chrysler automatic
    transmissions.It is recommended that all vehicles with Chrysler
    automatic transmissions EXCEPT FOR THOSE LISTED ABOVE be serviced with
    ATF+4®.

    NOTE: ATF+4® must always be used in vehicles that were originally filled
    with ATF+4®.

    NOTE: Service intervals do not change. The service interval currently in
    effect for a given vehicle should continue to be followed.

    NOTE: ATF+4® is compatible with ATF+3 and ATF+2. ATF+4 can be used to
    top off vehicles that currently have ATF+2 or ATF+3. Do not use ATF+2 or
    ATF+3 to top off vehicles that have ATF+4® fluid.

    BENEFITS
    ..Better anti-wear properties
    ..Improved rust/corrosion prevention
    ..Controls oxidation
    ..Eliminates deposits
    ..Controls friction
    ..Retains anti-foaming properties
    ..Superior properties for low temperature operation


    FLUID COLOR
    Mopar ATF+4® is a World Class Fluid having exceptional durability.
    However, the red dyen used in ATF+4® is not permanent; as the fluid ages
    it may become darker or appear brown in color. ATF+4® also has a unique
    odor that may change with age. With ATF+4® fluid, color and odor are no
    longer indicators of fluid condition and do not support a fluid change.

    PARTS REQUIRED:
    Qty. Part No. Description

    AR 05013457AA Fluid, Transmission, ATF+4® (Type 9602),Quart



    SUBJECT: New Automatic Transmission Fluid Usage (ATF +4 Type 9602)

    **NOTE: THIS INFORMATION APPLIES TO MODELS AS FOLLOWS:**

    MODELS BUILD DATE
    **GS** **AFTER NOVEMBER 8, 1999 (MDH1108XX)** JA AFTER SEPTEMBER 7, 1998
    (MDH0907XX)
    **JX** **AFTER MAY 21, 1999 (MDH0521XX)** LH AFTER JULY 20, 1998 (MDH0720XX)
    **NS** **AFTER OCTOBER 10, 1999 (MDH1010XX) WINDSOR ASSY PLANT**
    **AFTER OCTOBER 18, 1999 (MDH1018XX) ST LOUIS ASSY PLANT**
    11TH POSITION OF VIN - R = WINDSOR/B = ST LOUIS
    **PL** **AFTER APRIL 24, 1999 (MDH0424XX)** PR AFTER JULY 20, 1998
    (MDH0720XX)

    DISCUSSION:
    A new transmission fluid (ATF +4 - Type 9602) has been developed and is
    being used as a factory fill in the above models. **Plants that build
    rear wheel drive models (other than Prowler) will introduce ATF +4
    throughout the 2000 calendar year.** This Technical Service Bulletin
    will be updated as additional models are introduced to ATF +4.

    **Always refer to this, or vehicle specific TSB's for the correct
    transmission fluid usage whenever performing service that requires fluid
    for 1999 or later models.**

    NOTE: ATF +4 MUST ALWAYS BE USED IN VEHICLES THAT WERE ORIGINALLY FILLED
    WITH ATF +4. USING ATF +3 IN THESE VEHICLES WILL DECREASE THE BENEFITS
    OF THIS NEW FLUID.

    AT THIS TIME, VEHICLES ORIGINALLY FILLED WITH ATF +2 OR ATF +3 SHOULD
    CONTINUE TO BE SERVICED WITH ATF +3 - TYPE 7176. **VEHICLE SPECIFIC
    TSB'S WILL BE ISSUED TO ANNOUNCE THE USE OF ATF +4 FOR EARLIER YEARS.**

    The p/n for quarts of ATF +4 is 05013457AA. Following are the added
    benefits of ATF +4:

    RECOMMENDED SERVICE INTERVALS
    a.. Normal Maintenance (Schedule A) - None (Fill For Life)
    b.. Severe Maintenance (Schedule B) - Fluid/Filter 77,000 km (48,000 miles)

    ADDITIONAL BENEFITS
    a.. Better anti-wear properties
    b.. Improved rust/corrosion prevention
    c.. Controls oxidation
    d.. Eliminates deposits
    e.. Controls friction
    f.. Retains anti-foaming properties
    g.. Superior properties for low temperature operation

    FLUID COLOR
    a.. ATF +4 is red in color as previously used transmission fluid.
    NOTE: THE RED DYE USED IN ATF +4 FLUID IS NOT A PERMANENT QUALITY. AS
    FLUID AGES, IT CAN BECOME DARKER OR MAY EVEN APPEAR LIGHT BROWN.
    DISCOLORATION ALONE DOES NOT INDICATE THE NEED FOR A FLUID CHANGE. IF
    THE COLOR CHANGE IS ACCOMPANIED BY A BURNT SMELL AND/OR A DETERIORATION
    IN SHIFT QUALITY, NEW FLUID MAY BE REQUIRED.

    POLICY: Information Only
     
    Sven, Sep 7, 2005
    #18
  19. Rick Yerke

    Sven Guest

    If you get ATF+4 for the same price or have too much money or working
    with DC I take this for granted.

    What sense does it make? Can you extend intervals?
     
    Sven, Sep 7, 2005
    #19
  20. Rick Yerke

    Bill Putney Guest

    In what you quoted, TSB 21-004-04 ends with "...PARTS REQUIRED:
    Qty. Part No. Description...AR 05013457AA Fluid, Transmission, ATF+4®
    (Type 9602),Quart". Everything after that, starting with "SUBJECT: New
    Automatic Transmission Fluid Usage (ATF +4 Type 9602)...", is from an
    earlier TSB and is not part of 21-004-04. I can see why someone would
    be confused if that all was run together as one TSB.
    The TSB says you can top of ATF+3 with ATF+4. Does that mean you can
    add up to 1.2 qt.? 1 qt.? 5 qts.? In other words, are small amounts
    of ATF+4 in with ATF+3 OK, but, say a 50-50 mix is not? They don't
    explicitly say it, but the implication is that you can add any amount of
    ATF+4 to one that can take ATF+4 but which still has ATF+3 in it. They
    do say that you should not add ATF+3 to one that has ATF+4 in it
    (implication being one that came with it from the factory). They aren't
    real explicit, but I'd say that the TSB does not justify an order to
    flush out any that had ATF+4 added on top of ATF+3. If that is indeed
    necessary, then that is information beyond TSB 21-004-04. I can't help
    but feel that someone in Europe is mis-intrerpreting the TSB (to have
    the mixed fluid flushed out). Perhaps they are only seeing the two
    TSB's run together and that is resulting in confusion and stupid
    requirements to flush mixed fluids.
    For reference, the FSM for my '99 Concorde (LH) with 42LE tranny in it
    says the tranny fluid and filter are to be changed every 48k miles (75km).

    Bill Putney
    (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
    address with the letter 'x')
     
    Bill Putney, Sep 7, 2005
    #20
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