Use of ethanol in Chrysler products

With the increase in gasoline prices, there is renewed interest in
ethanol. If I remember correctly, Chrysler and most other manufacturers
warn against the use of gasoline containing ethanol.

Is it safe to use gasoline with ethanol or not?

-Kirk Matheson

 

From my days designing fuel pump products (4 to 13 years ago), the
practical limit in systems of the day (at that time anyway) was 15%.
Fuel system components had to be tested in several fuel formulations,
and I beleive one of those was an ethanol blend (somewhere in the range
of 10 to 15%). More than that is more than various materials designed
into the fuel systems can handle. A system designed to handle higher
percentages of ethanol would require special materials and treatments.

One area that I was directly involved in was in capacitors that "lived"
in the fuel in the fuel pump. Ethanol molecules are so small that
nothing short of seamless metal encasing - not overmolding, no coating -
could keep the alcohol out of the capacitor over the expected life of a
vehicle. In addition, the aluminum vapor deposited on the capacitor
film would be dissolved away when exposed to the alcohol. No metal on
the film, no more capacitor, no more pump motor EMI suppression. That's
just one of many components that would be impacted (not to mention the
many plastic and rubber components in a typical fuel system).

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
adddress with the letter 'x')

 

With the increase in gasoline prices, there is renewed interest in
ethanol. If I remember correctly, Chrysler and most other manufacturers
warn against the use of gasoline containing ethanol.

Is it safe to use gasoline with ethanol or not?

-Kirk Matheson

Some manufactures do not recommend ethanol blended gasoline's due to
alcohol's corrosive properties eat away rubber gasket not designed for
alcohol service. Chrysler does have some vehicle models that can handle the
E85 fuel blend.

See this link for which vehicles:
http://www.e85fuel.com/information/daimler_chrysler.htm

Here is another link: http://www.iowacorn.org/ethanol/ethanol_5a.html

Sarge

 

FYI, I have a 2000 T&C with the E85 engine (3.8 is non-E85). I have used
this E85 on various occasion and it has not cause any problems
as of yet, nor do I expect it to. I have 80 K and no problems. What my
concern is that E85, even thou a higher octane, doesn't provide
the power nor the mileage of gas. With gas, I get approx. 21 on highway
and 18.5 with E85. E85 is about 10 cents cheaper, so bottom
line, gas is a better deal. Also it would seem strange that when gas
goes up 20-30 a gallon, E85 is still about 10 cents cheaper. I would
think E85 (being 15 % gas) would only be 15 % of the cost increase,
making the E85 a better deal as gas cost go up.
Just my 2 cents worth........

 

Up to 10% ethanol (maybe up to 15% in very recent models) in gasoline is
approved by most makers.

It, uh, doesn't save you money -- you realize that, right? Ethanol
contains substantially less energy per unit volume than gasoline. Adding
ethanol to gasoline lowers the energy content of a gallon (or litre) of
the resultant mix. You must, therefore, burn more of it to go the same
distance.

DS

 

Not strange at all. Ethanol is *VERY* heavily subsidized by means of very
generous fuel tax exemptions, production tax credits and so forth.
Archer-Daniels-Midland, the company that makes virtually all of North
America's fuel ethanol, has bought many politicians in both parties to
make sure of that! Without these Federal subsidies, ethanol as a motor
fuel or motor fuel additive would be an even bigger joke than it is *with*
the subsidies.

DS

 

Doesn't your owner's manual say that a 10% Ethanol blend is OK, or that a 5%
Methanol blend is OK?

 

now you know that letting a company keep there own money is not a
subsidsity. the over taxing of the gas is a penilty. don`t make incorect
claims. KB

 

Your right about taxing being a penalty. But if 99% of the companies pay
tax, then the ones that are not paying taxes have gained a favour. It could
be called a subsidy, it's all the same.

 

What is the situation in Brazil? Is the alcohol content not much higher
than 15%. Do they use methanol?

DAS

For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
---

[..]

[...]

 

Newer cars are designed to use a blend of gasoline with up to 10% ethanol. I
would avoid methanol at all costs, especially in cold weather since its use
can lead to phase separation of the water in the gas resulting in an
expensive repair to purge the fuel system and tank. Older cars should avoid
both blends if possible, especially methanol. That includes "dry gas".

Richard.

Richard.

 

It's been 4 years, but my recollection is that the Delphi and Ford
engineers that I worked with talked about the gasoline used in South
American countries in general as being absolutely the worst, and
impossible to design for. They use high alcohol content, and there's a
lot of sulfur in it - awful environment for fuel components.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
adddress with the letter 'x')

 

yes it is, and if you have the ffv(flex fuel vehicle) engine mangement
system in your chrysler
you can run at 85 % ethanol the way is is

 

And oil ISN'T subsidized??? What about the Gulf War and the Iraq War?
I'd say that oil companies have benefited very HEAVILY from this
subsidy paid for with billions of dollars and human lives. So, if I go
out and buy a ton of straw for $60 and make 75 gallons of ethanol from
it, while using $5 of wood to distill it, and burn the fuel in a high
compression engine that is optimized to run ethanol at nearly the same
efficiency as gasoline, then is it still a big joke?

Mgrant

 

Excellent point, ethanol is superior to gasoline in almost every way. Many
believe prohibition was a way to suppress it's use in automobiles in the
twenty's as gasoline had not yet established it's dominance.

 

Except, y'know, for minor things like energy content per volume unit.

 

True, but with an engine properly set up (i.e. high compression) the same
fuel mileage as gasoline can be obtained. And the higher compression will
produce more power and emit only carbon dioxide and water. Even if the
economy was worse (which it isn't), it is possible to construct a still and
produce ethanol for next to nothing. Also, many new cars are equipped to
run on e85 which is 85% ethanol, all other can be converted by the simple
installation of a computer chip. The electronic fuel injection does the
rest. Here is a good link if you are interested.

http://running_on_alcohol.tripod.com/index.html

 

So why is it that none of these non-polluting vehicles are certified
for use in California? And why can't you (apparently) buy E85 here?

 

Not necessarily - As an example, Cox Communications (cable TV provider
among other things) is whining loudly and advertising on TV to "level
the playing field" with satellite TV because they are taxed and
satellite TV isn't.


But the reason they are taxed is to help pay for the fact that they
have to tear up shit to lay cable while that is unnecessary for
satellite TV.

 

....and an engine thus optimized could give even better performance and
economy on gasoline. That's a vicious cycle.

Er...no. High compression + alcohol = Oxides of Nitrogen go through the
roof. Aldehyde emissions soar.

....with greatly reduced fuel economy and performance, yes.

No matter how much handwaving you do, you cannot gloze over the fact that
ethanol contains substantially less energy than gasoline.