torqueflite 727 problem, need help....please. Long, sorry.

I have a problem with my fresh built 727. Its an 83 lock up model
from a Jeep grand wagoneer. Currrently in a cj7 with 258 in front and
d300 behind, 4.56 gears. Trans was built with new high qaulity overhaul
kit; clutches, steels, seals, pump set, 5:1 band lever, a properly
installed trans-action shift kit, new 16-1800 stall converter, properly
connected lokar trottle valve cable. No new bands. Less than 3 miles on
it now. I've read everything I can search on every board and have not
found a solution.
The problem I'm having is no third gear shift what so ever. The 1-2
shift occurs vey early speed wise, if the trans bothers with 1st at
all, and just runs up to 3500 or so and still no 3 shift. The 1-2 shift
feels like it occurs very early in the motion of the shifter too, just
as I touch the shifter to move to 2nd it shifts, feels like a good firm
shift though. Also there is a "bog feel" that feels like I'm towing a
LARGE load or big head wind (basically the jeep does not accelerate as
quickly or pull as hard as it did before the rebuild), but when the
throttle valve cable is disconnected or tuned way out this bog is
mostly eliminated.
When this trans died a couple months ago the first thing that went
was 3rd, but it was more like where 3rd should have been there was only
nuetral, now its like there is only 1st and 2nd gear. Then a few miles
later 2nd then 1st became nuetral and R died too. During the rebuild we
found the snap ring that retains the clutches broke and let the
clutches and steels come loose. Ever since this trans was swapped in
from a junkyard wagoneer it has always slipped on the way into 3rd (rev
up for 3/4 second then 3rd caught). Before the rebuild it never had a
throttle valve cable.
Any help anyone could give me would be hugely appreciated, and if
your solution is long and drawn out, I'll cover ya. Email me if you
want me to call, .Ive been fighting through this
for a month now and am out of answers and desperate. Help a guy out.

Thanks in advance, Chris

Sorry its so long.

 

You have a valve spool, possibly the TV valve, installed backward in
the valve body, a missing/misapplied spring, or possibly a
missing/misinstalled check ball. I remember one guy got a check ball
in the wrong place years ago on a 727 and wound up with no direct at
all. After disassembling the valve body, the only way I found it was
comparing with the valve body pictorials in the manual. Once
reassembled properly, pattern was normal.

Other, more mundane things would be:

2nd band adjusted too tight or servo's stuck.
Governor's stuck at low speed.
TV is installed backward (I've seen this more than once!)
Manual linkage horridly maladjusted
TV linkage (cable) holding valve in kickdown position (pretty common
on power plant swaps like this.)
Improperly assembled front clutch (jammed seal)

 

Bob, you worked as a phone guy for Bell Telephone- what the hell do you
know about a torqueflite ? Stop posing as a Chrysler mechanic- you
drive a 1978 Honda, for cripes sakes.

What a windbag ....

Those suggestions you put up above, are from some old transmission
repair manual, no doubt. I wager you bought an old Chrysler repair
book at a yard sale for $1, and are now dispensing your vast stores of
written knowledge on Usenet.

Your answer to another person's "stalling" problem says it all- you
asked him when the last time his filter/oil was changed- like that
would make the car stall...

 

Well, you should put in new bands. Why on earth would you NOT replace
bands during a rebuild?!?!?

It sounds to me like a valve body problem. I distrust shift kits in
general, although TransGo does seem to know how to make one for a Mopar.
What makes me double-suspicious here is that there are VERY few shift
kits actually made for a Torqueflite witha lockup convertor, and using
one from a non-lockup convertor will screw the works but good. Other
possibilities include a mal-adjusted front band which is staying applied
in 3rd gear and attempting to lock the transmission, or a front clutch
seal that's blown out of its ring so that the front (direct or 3rd gear)
clutch never applies.

And that's what killed it. Running a Torqueflite without a throttle
cable is a guaranteed way to roast it. The cable not only sets shift
POINTS, it also modulates clutch and band apply PRESSURE. With the cable
disconnected, apply pressure will always be a minimum so the clutches
and bands will slip at any throttle application above a fast idle.

IMO, you should drop the transmission and go through it all again, this
time replacing the bands as should have been done the first time.

But if you want to try to troubleshoot in-car:

1) Get a valve body from a junked vehicle with a lockup 727. Toss away
the one with the "shift kit" and try an un-adulterated one.

2) while the valve body is out, follow the service manual procedure for
testing the clutch and band servos with low-pressure compressed air.
This will tell you if the direct (front) clutch seal is indeed blown or
rolled out of its groove- this often happens on assembly and you gotta
be REAL careful

3) Adjust the bands (particularly the front band) per service manual
instructions

 

The last sentence gives the impression that the shift linkage might be part
of the problem. I would crawl under the vehicle, disconnect the shift
linkage from the transmission lever and have an assistant run the shifter
through each gear position while you check the relative position of the
transmission lever to the selected gear. If misadjusted/poorly designed
shift linkage places the transmission lever between two gear detents, it
will cause any number of problems. Also check that the transmission shift
lever detents are firm and that there is no slop in the lever movement.
Being in between gears could also account for the "bogging" feeling.

If the linkage adjustment checks out OK, you need to do some real
troubleshooting by checking the pressures at the various test ports. As
previously stated, leaving out the large (11/32") check ball in the valve
body will prevent the 2-3 upshift. If the valve body needs to be removed it
would be wise to perform an air test of the installed components as is
outlined in the FSM; this should be performed on any newly assembled unit
but is seldom done.





..

 

Made some headway today. As of tonight 3rd has come on. there was a
check ball that the shift kit said leave out that the mopar manual said
leave (the 11/32 one), this was applied and 3rd is now present, though
at a high shift point.
the shift kit is a fairbanks transaction kit which it lists works on
the lock up model as well. New transtar lock up converter. The reason
for no new bands was the man helping me has done transmissions only for
dodge dealer for years and he thought thier condition deemed them fine
to keep (maybe because of minimal pressure from no tv cable?). The
shifter linkage is connected and adjusted properly. I now know that the
tv cable is mandatory, just didnt back then, and blamed it on the
junkyard unit.
The bog feel I mentioned is now gone with the check ball in place.
The 1-2 shift is better timed now at about 1500, but still want it a
bit higher. Goes to first everytime now from stop. 3rd comes at about
3200 which is way too high for me. Then the 3-2 shift comes too early,
maybe 10 mph below vehichle speed from the 2-3 shift.
I'm going to try adjusting the tv cable a bit more tonight and see if
the shift points get better.
Thanks for all the solutions thus far and please keep them coming.
I'm always open to more answers.

 

It seems that Steve's, Kunkel's and my diagnoses are convergent on
several points, but two things seem to stick out here...the biggest
being an improper "shift kit." A call to a friend who owns a very
reputable auto trans shop and does a lot of restoration work on older
units agrees with Steve...if you put ANY pre-lockup "shift kit" in a
lockup valve body, you're screwed. Take the shift kit out and go back
to stock and see what happens.

This same set of symptoms will also occur if the kickdown (2nd) band
is adjusted way too tight, or if the servo is sticking. If this is
the case, prepare to tear it all down again, because that old, used
band you reused (for reasons I cannot fathom) is now probably toast. A
"bogged" 1-2 will occur when the front clutch piston is jammed due to
a jammed seal, too, and will also cause failure to go to direct.

Who did this rebuild??

 

:::taking a bow for correct diagnosis:::

That would give the opposite condition...minimal pressure from a
maladjusted/backward installed TV would yield low control pressure,
which would burn up the kickdown band in no time.

Dump the shift kit. Never heard of a "Fairbanks" shift kit for any
Torqueflite. Go back stock, and pay SPECIAL attention to placement of
those check balls.

 

I've rebuild two years ago. How many have you done?

Start of paranoid delusional "projection" rant:

End of paranoid delusional "projection" rant.

What you've just admitted is how you do things, Noodles. Projection
like this is how many schizophrenics/psychotics/paranoid delusionals
try to impress people that they are sane...and you do it all the time.

By the way...I get a nice, fat pension and savings plan dividend check
every month. You get what....SSI?

 

Fairbanks is an old and well-respected name in performance transmissions and
parts, they are now in league with Superior and their Transaction® shift
kits are basically the same as the TransGo and B&M Transpak®.
A properly installed shift kit is an enhancement to the transmission so I
would disagree on removing it.

 

Superior and especially B&M, as well as TransGo I know. Fairbanks
must not be marketed well in this area, as I've never come across them
out here. B&M, which got its start out here with performance kits for
cast iron HydraMatics in the '50s, ran the whole show until ATP went
nationwide with their excellent TransGo® kits.

The problem here is that he made a change to the valving, got
everything together and all hell broke loose. To do any
troubleshooting, I'd think it'd be wise to go back to the stock valve
body configuration, then look at control pressure and then what the
pattern's doing. Already, according to the OP, one of the check balls
was deleted, which I diagnosed right off. The shift kit may, or may
*not* be causitive here, so removing it and going to stock will allow
diagnosis of the front clutch action, as well as the kickdown band.

A "late" shift to direct would seem to eliminate the kickdown band
being maladjusted extremely tight, but it doesn't clear the servo
being either stuck mechnically or hydrualically. It's possible, with
a misapplied check ball, to have the band servo apply and then have no
exhaust passage, thus giving the situation that Steve alludes to of
the box trying to lock itself up. However, the OP says he now gets
direct, but very late, so I'm thinking that the servo is mechanically
OK, but MAY be hydraulically held operated. Thus, going back to the
original valve body configuration may (or may not) see if that problem
is cleared, as well.

If the kickdown band servo isn't helped by going back to original, I'd
take a very harsh look at a screwed up/jammed front clutch seal ring.
This would also cause low control pressure, which would also cause a
late and soft 2-3. It's also possible, with very low control
pressure, that the 3500 RPM he's reporting before getting direct could
be a lot of slippage, as well.

 

There's only one optimal position for the TV cable to be in...lever
fully actuated at full throttle. Since you've done a transplant, it's
possible that the throttle linkage geometry is screwed up now, which
will give you a hosed up pattern and an improper coast-down 2-1. Like
the old HydraMatics, the Torqueflite requires the TV linkage to track
properly in order to program the TV to give the right shift points and
firmness at the right power settings. If you're not getting enough
cable draw action from idle to full throttle, you will get high shift
points and high coast down downshifts, assuming you set the linkage
properly for being fully actuated at full throttle. If you maladjust
for lower points, you'll have no kickdown and sloppy shifts under
power.

 

John,

This "desertbob" character is a poser who is posting from auto repair
manuals- he doesn't have any hands on experience fixing cars. This is
the same guy that disassembled an entire 318 motor, when all it needed
was a new thersmostat. So of course, he knows nothing about Fairbanks.
You are correct in that they make top-notch converters and trans
parts.

You are correct- a shift kit for an auto trans will "firm up" the
shifts, which causes a quick, abrupt shift- and LESS SLIPPAGE- shift
kits will extend band and clutch pack life.

In 1985 I had a TH350 GM auto trans rebuilt, and put a B&M transpak
shift kit in it, but retained the modulator for street part-throttle
driving. (the most drastic kit mode specified to remove the modulator
for very high upshift points for racing) That transmission is still in
my Firebird to this date, has never caused any problems, and has been
drag raced extensively at the track, and driven very hard on the
street. Had it not been for the kit, the trans would be toast by now.


Synthetic trans fluid helped too, of course.

 

....just busted you with yet another sock puppet account...
that you opened today.

Add to your kill filers.

"Trans kits" are unnecessary in 90% of applications...idiot.

POSER ALERT: This moron, Charlie Nudo of Drums, PA, claims to have a
Pontiac Firebird 455 HO with a "tunnel ram" manifold. It probably
doesn't run. Also, the Chevrolet THM350 does NOT fit the Pontiac
block at all. B-O-P cars had their own THM375 made by the former
Detroit Transmission Divison, NOT Chevrolet Division, with the B-O-P
bell housing pattern.

Charlie Nudo...shown to be a liar again.

 

Charlie Nudo, why yet another new Google account?

Total lie. He had an old beat to shit pontiac years ago. Charlie is the
biggest blowhard on Usenet always talking about his adventures when the
truth is he just a overweight dumpster diver who is on SSI.

You take many pictures for your failed Ebay auctions, why not show them
a recent picture of this great car?

 

Fairbanks kits are the same as Superior, they're in bed together.

B&M didn't actually make "kits" for the iron Hydro, they built a unit manual
controlled Hydro called the Hydro-Stik with the famous logo of a robot
holding a shift lever.

TransGo is independent of ATP and is marketed through many other vendors.

The "change in valving" had nothing to do with it.

The missing #3 ball was the cause for no 2-3 upshift (you weren't alone in
suggesting that) and the backflow through the missing check ball partially
applied the rear band which accounts for the "bogging" feeling.
The remainder of the OP's current late shift timing issues are related to
throttle pressure adjustment and not the shift kit. The late 2-3 upshift and
the early forced kickdown are solely the result of too much throttle
pressure for the throttle opening; a simple cable/linkage adjustment should
solve that problem.

 

It isn't about "necessary", 99% of vehicle modifications aren't necessary
but if they enhance performance/longevity and driving pleasure there is no
reason not to make the mods.
It's a matter of personal choice, and advising people to not use them or to
remove existing mods is a singular view.

 

John,

This "desertbob" character is a poser who is posting from auto repair
manuals- he doesn't have any hands on experience fixing cars.

Duly noted, but even a blind squirrel occasionally finds a nut.