torqueflite 727 problem, need help....please. Long, sorry.

Discussion in 'General Motoring' started by cjboater, Sep 26, 2006.

  1. cjboater

    cjboater Guest

    I have a problem with my fresh built 727. Its an 83 lock up model
    from a Jeep grand wagoneer. Currrently in a cj7 with 258 in front and
    d300 behind, 4.56 gears. Trans was built with new high qaulity overhaul
    kit; clutches, steels, seals, pump set, 5:1 band lever, a properly
    installed trans-action shift kit, new 16-1800 stall converter, properly
    connected lokar trottle valve cable. No new bands. Less than 3 miles on
    it now. I've read everything I can search on every board and have not
    found a solution.
    The problem I'm having is no third gear shift what so ever. The 1-2
    shift occurs vey early speed wise, if the trans bothers with 1st at
    all, and just runs up to 3500 or so and still no 3 shift. The 1-2 shift
    feels like it occurs very early in the motion of the shifter too, just
    as I touch the shifter to move to 2nd it shifts, feels like a good firm
    shift though. Also there is a "bog feel" that feels like I'm towing a
    LARGE load or big head wind (basically the jeep does not accelerate as
    quickly or pull as hard as it did before the rebuild), but when the
    throttle valve cable is disconnected or tuned way out this bog is
    mostly eliminated.
    When this trans died a couple months ago the first thing that went
    was 3rd, but it was more like where 3rd should have been there was only
    nuetral, now its like there is only 1st and 2nd gear. Then a few miles
    later 2nd then 1st became nuetral and R died too. During the rebuild we
    found the snap ring that retains the clutches broke and let the
    clutches and steels come loose. Ever since this trans was swapped in
    from a junkyard wagoneer it has always slipped on the way into 3rd (rev
    up for 3/4 second then 3rd caught). Before the rebuild it never had a
    throttle valve cable.
    Any help anyone could give me would be hugely appreciated, and if
    your solution is long and drawn out, I'll cover ya. Email me if you
    want me to call, .Ive been fighting through this
    for a month now and am out of answers and desperate. Help a guy out.

    Thanks in advance, Chris

    Sorry its so long.
    cjboater, Sep 26, 2006
  2. cjboater

    DeserTBoB Guest

    You have a valve spool, possibly the TV valve, installed backward in
    the valve body, a missing/misapplied spring, or possibly a
    missing/misinstalled check ball. I remember one guy got a check ball
    in the wrong place years ago on a 727 and wound up with no direct at
    all. After disassembling the valve body, the only way I found it was
    comparing with the valve body pictorials in the manual. Once
    reassembled properly, pattern was normal.

    Other, more mundane things would be:

    2nd band adjusted too tight or servo's stuck.
    Governor's stuck at low speed.
    TV is installed backward (I've seen this more than once!)
    Manual linkage horridly maladjusted
    TV linkage (cable) holding valve in kickdown position (pretty common
    on power plant swaps like this.)
    Improperly assembled front clutch (jammed seal)
    DeserTBoB, Sep 26, 2006

  3. Bob, you worked as a phone guy for Bell Telephone- what the hell do you
    know about a torqueflite ? Stop posing as a Chrysler mechanic- you
    drive a 1978 Honda, for cripes sakes.

    What a windbag ....

    Those suggestions you put up above, are from some old transmission
    repair manual, no doubt. I wager you bought an old Chrysler repair
    book at a yard sale for $1, and are now dispensing your vast stores of
    written knowledge on Usenet.

    Your answer to another person's "stalling" problem says it all- you
    asked him when the last time his filter/oil was changed- like that
    would make the car stall...
    duty-honor-country, Sep 26, 2006
  4. cjboater

    Steve Guest

    Well, you should put in new bands. Why on earth would you NOT replace
    bands during a rebuild?!?!?
    It sounds to me like a valve body problem. I distrust shift kits in
    general, although TransGo does seem to know how to make one for a Mopar.
    What makes me double-suspicious here is that there are VERY few shift
    kits actually made for a Torqueflite witha lockup convertor, and using
    one from a non-lockup convertor will screw the works but good. Other
    possibilities include a mal-adjusted front band which is staying applied
    in 3rd gear and attempting to lock the transmission, or a front clutch
    seal that's blown out of its ring so that the front (direct or 3rd gear)
    clutch never applies.
    And that's what killed it. Running a Torqueflite without a throttle
    cable is a guaranteed way to roast it. The cable not only sets shift
    POINTS, it also modulates clutch and band apply PRESSURE. With the cable
    disconnected, apply pressure will always be a minimum so the clutches
    and bands will slip at any throttle application above a fast idle.

    IMO, you should drop the transmission and go through it all again, this
    time replacing the bands as should have been done the first time.

    But if you want to try to troubleshoot in-car:

    1) Get a valve body from a junked vehicle with a lockup 727. Toss away
    the one with the "shift kit" and try an un-adulterated one.

    2) while the valve body is out, follow the service manual procedure for
    testing the clutch and band servos with low-pressure compressed air.
    This will tell you if the direct (front) clutch seal is indeed blown or
    rolled out of its groove- this often happens on assembly and you gotta
    be REAL careful

    3) Adjust the bands (particularly the front band) per service manual
    Steve, Sep 26, 2006
  5. cjboater

    John Kunkel Guest

    John Kunkel, Sep 26, 2006
  6. cjboater

    John Kunkel Guest

    John Kunkel, Sep 26, 2006
  7. cjboater

    John Kunkel Guest

    The last sentence gives the impression that the shift linkage might be part
    of the problem. I would crawl under the vehicle, disconnect the shift
    linkage from the transmission lever and have an assistant run the shifter
    through each gear position while you check the relative position of the
    transmission lever to the selected gear. If misadjusted/poorly designed
    shift linkage places the transmission lever between two gear detents, it
    will cause any number of problems. Also check that the transmission shift
    lever detents are firm and that there is no slop in the lever movement.
    Being in between gears could also account for the "bogging" feeling.

    If the linkage adjustment checks out OK, you need to do some real
    troubleshooting by checking the pressures at the various test ports. As
    previously stated, leaving out the large (11/32") check ball in the valve
    body will prevent the 2-3 upshift. If the valve body needs to be removed it
    would be wise to perform an air test of the installed components as is
    outlined in the FSM; this should be performed on any newly assembled unit
    but is seldom done.

    John Kunkel, Sep 26, 2006
  8. cjboater

    cjboater Guest

    Made some headway today. As of tonight 3rd has come on. there was a
    check ball that the shift kit said leave out that the mopar manual said
    leave (the 11/32 one), this was applied and 3rd is now present, though
    at a high shift point.
    the shift kit is a fairbanks transaction kit which it lists works on
    the lock up model as well. New transtar lock up converter. The reason
    for no new bands was the man helping me has done transmissions only for
    dodge dealer for years and he thought thier condition deemed them fine
    to keep (maybe because of minimal pressure from no tv cable?). The
    shifter linkage is connected and adjusted properly. I now know that the
    tv cable is mandatory, just didnt back then, and blamed it on the
    junkyard unit.
    The bog feel I mentioned is now gone with the check ball in place.
    The 1-2 shift is better timed now at about 1500, but still want it a
    bit higher. Goes to first everytime now from stop. 3rd comes at about
    3200 which is way too high for me. Then the 3-2 shift comes too early,
    maybe 10 mph below vehichle speed from the 2-3 shift.
    I'm going to try adjusting the tv cable a bit more tonight and see if
    the shift points get better.
    Thanks for all the solutions thus far and please keep them coming.
    I'm always open to more answers.
    cjboater, Sep 27, 2006
  9. cjboater

    DeserTBoB Guest

    It seems that Steve's, Kunkel's and my diagnoses are convergent on
    several points, but two things seem to stick out here...the biggest
    being an improper "shift kit." A call to a friend who owns a very
    reputable auto trans shop and does a lot of restoration work on older
    units agrees with Steve...if you put ANY pre-lockup "shift kit" in a
    lockup valve body, you're screwed. Take the shift kit out and go back
    to stock and see what happens.

    This same set of symptoms will also occur if the kickdown (2nd) band
    is adjusted way too tight, or if the servo is sticking. If this is
    the case, prepare to tear it all down again, because that old, used
    band you reused (for reasons I cannot fathom) is now probably toast. A
    "bogged" 1-2 will occur when the front clutch piston is jammed due to
    a jammed seal, too, and will also cause failure to go to direct.

    Who did this rebuild??
    DeserTBoB, Sep 27, 2006
  10. cjboater

    DeserTBoB Guest

    :::taking a bow for correct diagnosis:::
    That would give the opposite condition...minimal pressure from a
    maladjusted/backward installed TV would yield low control pressure,
    which would burn up the kickdown band in no time.
    Dump the shift kit. Never heard of a "Fairbanks" shift kit for any
    Torqueflite. Go back stock, and pay SPECIAL attention to placement of
    those check balls.
    DeserTBoB, Sep 27, 2006
  11. cjboater

    NudoSmasher Guest

    I've rebuild two years ago. How many have you done?

    Start of paranoid delusional "projection" rant:
    End of paranoid delusional "projection" rant.

    What you've just admitted is how you do things, Noodles. Projection
    like this is how many schizophrenics/psychotics/paranoid delusionals
    try to impress people that they are sane...and you do it all the time.

    By the way...I get a nice, fat pension and savings plan dividend check
    every month. You get what....SSI?
    NudoSmasher, Sep 27, 2006
  12. cjboater

    John Kunkel Guest

    Fairbanks is an old and well-respected name in performance transmissions and
    parts, they are now in league with Superior and their Transaction® shift
    kits are basically the same as the TransGo and B&M Transpak®.
    A properly installed shift kit is an enhancement to the transmission so I
    would disagree on removing it.
    John Kunkel, Sep 27, 2006
  13. cjboater

    DeserTBoB Guest

    Superior and especially B&M, as well as TransGo I know. Fairbanks
    must not be marketed well in this area, as I've never come across them
    out here. B&M, which got its start out here with performance kits for
    cast iron HydraMatics in the '50s, ran the whole show until ATP went
    nationwide with their excellent TransGo® kits.

    The problem here is that he made a change to the valving, got
    everything together and all hell broke loose. To do any
    troubleshooting, I'd think it'd be wise to go back to the stock valve
    body configuration, then look at control pressure and then what the
    pattern's doing. Already, according to the OP, one of the check balls
    was deleted, which I diagnosed right off. The shift kit may, or may
    *not* be causitive here, so removing it and going to stock will allow
    diagnosis of the front clutch action, as well as the kickdown band.

    A "late" shift to direct would seem to eliminate the kickdown band
    being maladjusted extremely tight, but it doesn't clear the servo
    being either stuck mechnically or hydrualically. It's possible, with
    a misapplied check ball, to have the band servo apply and then have no
    exhaust passage, thus giving the situation that Steve alludes to of
    the box trying to lock itself up. However, the OP says he now gets
    direct, but very late, so I'm thinking that the servo is mechanically
    OK, but MAY be hydraulically held operated. Thus, going back to the
    original valve body configuration may (or may not) see if that problem
    is cleared, as well.

    If the kickdown band servo isn't helped by going back to original, I'd
    take a very harsh look at a screwed up/jammed front clutch seal ring.
    This would also cause low control pressure, which would also cause a
    late and soft 2-3. It's also possible, with very low control
    pressure, that the 3500 RPM he's reporting before getting direct could
    be a lot of slippage, as well.
    DeserTBoB, Sep 27, 2006
  14. cjboater

    DeserTBoB Guest

    There's only one optimal position for the TV cable to be in...lever
    fully actuated at full throttle. Since you've done a transplant, it's
    possible that the throttle linkage geometry is screwed up now, which
    will give you a hosed up pattern and an improper coast-down 2-1. Like
    the old HydraMatics, the Torqueflite requires the TV linkage to track
    properly in order to program the TV to give the right shift points and
    firmness at the right power settings. If you're not getting enough
    cable draw action from idle to full throttle, you will get high shift
    points and high coast down downshifts, assuming you set the linkage
    properly for being fully actuated at full throttle. If you maladjust
    for lower points, you'll have no kickdown and sloppy shifts under
    DeserTBoB, Sep 28, 2006

  15. John,

    This "desertbob" character is a poser who is posting from auto repair
    manuals- he doesn't have any hands on experience fixing cars. This is
    the same guy that disassembled an entire 318 motor, when all it needed
    was a new thersmostat. So of course, he knows nothing about Fairbanks.
    You are correct in that they make top-notch converters and trans

    You are correct- a shift kit for an auto trans will "firm up" the
    shifts, which causes a quick, abrupt shift- and LESS SLIPPAGE- shift
    kits will extend band and clutch pack life.

    In 1985 I had a TH350 GM auto trans rebuilt, and put a B&M transpak
    shift kit in it, but retained the modulator for street part-throttle
    driving. (the most drastic kit mode specified to remove the modulator
    for very high upshift points for racing) That transmission is still in
    my Firebird to this date, has never caused any problems, and has been
    drag raced extensively at the track, and driven very hard on the
    street. Had it not been for the kit, the trans would be toast by now.

    Synthetic trans fluid helped too, of course.
    duty-honor-country, Sep 28, 2006
  16. cjboater

    DeserTBoB Guest

    ....just busted you with yet another sock puppet account...
    that you opened today.

    Add to your kill filers.
    "Trans kits" are unnecessary in 90% of applications...idiot.
    POSER ALERT: This moron, Charlie Nudo of Drums, PA, claims to have a
    Pontiac Firebird 455 HO with a "tunnel ram" manifold. It probably
    doesn't run. Also, the Chevrolet THM350 does NOT fit the Pontiac
    block at all. B-O-P cars had their own THM375 made by the former
    Detroit Transmission Divison, NOT Chevrolet Division, with the B-O-P
    bell housing pattern.

    Charlie Nudo...shown to be a liar again.
    DeserTBoB, Sep 28, 2006
  17. Charlie Nudo, why yet another new Google account?
    Total lie. He had an old beat to shit pontiac years ago. Charlie is the
    biggest blowhard on Usenet always talking about his adventures when the
    truth is he just a overweight dumpster diver who is on SSI.

    You take many pictures for your failed Ebay auctions, why not show them
    a recent picture of this great car?
    Charlie Deludo, Sep 28, 2006
  18. cjboater

    John Kunkel Guest

    Fairbanks kits are the same as Superior, they're in bed together.

    B&M didn't actually make "kits" for the iron Hydro, they built a unit manual
    controlled Hydro called the Hydro-Stik with the famous logo of a robot
    holding a shift lever.

    TransGo is independent of ATP and is marketed through many other vendors.

    The "change in valving" had nothing to do with it.

    The missing #3 ball was the cause for no 2-3 upshift (you weren't alone in
    suggesting that) and the backflow through the missing check ball partially
    applied the rear band which accounts for the "bogging" feeling.
    The remainder of the OP's current late shift timing issues are related to
    throttle pressure adjustment and not the shift kit. The late 2-3 upshift and
    the early forced kickdown are solely the result of too much throttle
    pressure for the throttle opening; a simple cable/linkage adjustment should
    solve that problem.
    John Kunkel, Sep 28, 2006
  19. cjboater

    John Kunkel Guest

    It isn't about "necessary", 99% of vehicle modifications aren't necessary
    but if they enhance performance/longevity and driving pleasure there is no
    reason not to make the mods.
    It's a matter of personal choice, and advising people to not use them or to
    remove existing mods is a singular view.
    John Kunkel, Sep 28, 2006
  20. cjboater

    John Kunkel Guest


    This "desertbob" character is a poser who is posting from auto repair
    manuals- he doesn't have any hands on experience fixing cars.

    Duly noted, but even a blind squirrel occasionally finds a nut.
    John Kunkel, Sep 28, 2006
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