Stalls and Dies 1993 Plymouth Grand Voyager 3.3

[John (4)]

I have a 1993 Plymouth Grand Voyager 3.3L.

This Problem is tricky.

The problem is that the vehicle stalls after running for several minutes at normal operating temperature, and won't restart until cool. If you start it completely cold, it runs great, and will consistently run about 15 minutes before dying.

The engine turns but doesn't start once it is hot, as it cools, you start to get sputters until it is cool enough to run, but it won't run long if it is not cooled down a lot.

There is good spark when it is stalled.
Fuel Pressure is consistent and ample (48 psi)
Starter fluid fires it right up, but then it dies when the fluid is burnt away.
Computer reports no error.

This problem is consistent.
It is not OVERheating when it stalls.

I AM STUMPED. I guess I can try some sensors snd relays, but I would like to try the most likely ones first.

THANKS for any ideas....

 

[Jack Pucci]

If you still have a distributer check the pickup

 

[High Sierra]

I have a 1993 Plymouth Grand Voyager 3.3L.

This Problem is tricky.

The problem is that the vehicle stalls after running for several minutes at normal operating temperature, and won't restart until cool. If you start it completely cold, it runs great, and will consistently run about 15 minutes before dying.

The engine turns but doesn't start once it is hot, as it cools, you start to get sputters until it is cool enough to run, but it won't run long if it is not cooled down a lot.

There is good spark when it is stalled.
Fuel Pressure is consistent and ample (48 psi)
Starter fluid fires it right up, but then it dies when the fluid is burnt away.
Computer reports no error.

This problem is consistent.
It is not OVERheating when it stalls.

I AM STUMPED. I guess I can try some sensors snd relays, but I would like to try the most likely ones first.

THANKS for any ideas....

Vapor Lock?

 

[Geoff]

Subject: Stalls and Dies 1993 Plymouth Grand Voyager 3.3

I have a 1993 Plymouth Grand Voyager 3.3L.

This Problem is tricky.

The problem is that the vehicle stalls after running for several minutes at normal operating temperature, and won't restart until cool. If you start it completely cold, it runs great, and will consistently run about 15 minutes before dying.

The engine turns but doesn't start once it is hot, as it cools, you start to get sputters until it is cool enough to run, but it won't run long if it is not cooled down a lot.

There is good spark when it is stalled.

Okay, so ignition system *should* be alright.

Fuel Pressure is consistent and ample (48 psi)

It sounds like you've eliminated the fuel pump as a problem. I'm not familiar enough (yet) with the 3.3 to know: are you checking fuel pressure at a test port downstream from the fuel pressure regulator? Have you verified you have pressure when the engine won't run? Have you verified there is voltage to the fuel pump when the engine won't run? (If so, your comment about 'relays' will be invalid -- the ASD relay would shut down the fuel pump.)

Starter fluid fires it right up, but then it dies when the fluid is burnt away.

So what appears to be happening is the fuel injectors are not firing when the problem occurs. You bypass the normal fuel delivery system via injecting ether into the intake air, and the engine runs.

I'd try to verify this if I had the equipment to do so. Check to see if you're getting injector pulses at the injectors or not when the engine won't run.

Computer reports no error.

Interesting. Are you certain of this? Most of the sensor stuff that might cause a problem like this would very likely set a code.

This problem is consistent.
It is not OVERheating when it stalls.

I AM STUMPED. I guess I can try some sensors snd relays, but I would like to try the most likely ones first.

I think you're most of the way to a good diagnosis. I wouldn't 'try sensors and relays' at this point, I'd keep trying to narrow things down.

Have you checked the 60-way connector at the engine computer for corrosion or other reasons for poor conductivity?

Is there any engine air ductwork missing that might account for the engine controller itself overheating?

Is the charging system delivering a consistent voltage at the battery when the engine runs? How about right before it dies?

--Geoff

 

[Geoff]

Subject: Re: Stalls and Dies 1993 Plymouth Grand Voyager 3.3

If you still have a distributer check the pickup

I'm pretty sure none of the 3.3L engines had a distributor.

--Geoff

 

[jdoe]

If it was vapor lock there would be no fuel pressure. My guess would be crank, cam or map sensor. Another item would be the egr valve. Have it scanned.
Larry

 

[André (archive)]

John,

If it is really temp related, check the temp sensors.
There are two off ; one for the engine controller, another for the gauge. I believe that the resistance is 10k ohms at 25degC ; 800 ohms at operating temp. However, i 'd suspect the fuel tank cap first.

André

 

[High Sierra]

John wrote:
snip

Starter fluid fires it right up, but then it dies when the fluid is burnt.

snip

Sounds like it's gettin spark but not gas.

 

[Daniel J. Stern]

Vapor Lock?

Er...no, High Sierra, not "vapor lock". This is a fuel-injected 1993, not a carbureted 1973 we're discussing.

Original poster: Does it behave the same if you remove the fuel tank cap before starting the engine?

 

[Bill Putney]

If you still have a distributer check the pickup

OP worte "There is good spark when it is stalled".

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with "x")

 

[Bill Putney]

I was also going to suggest temp sensors as one possibility, and don't rule out a poor connection (corrosion, or incomplete mating) of a connector.

 

[deadbeat]

This happened to me in my old van before. It was the coolant temp sensor. Does not cause a code, just stalled a hell of a lot when warmed up. Work's fine for the first couple of miles till reaches operating temp then dies!

 

[High Sierra]

Er...no, High Sierra, not "vapor lock". This is a fuel-injected 1993, not a carbureted 1973 we're discussing.

Original poster: Does it behave the same if you remove the fuel tank cap before starting the engine?

Sorry. I wasn't aware that fuel injection eliminated vapor lock. After thinking about this it's the in tank fuel pump that eliminated vapor lock. Right?

 

[Daniel J. Stern]

Sorry. I wasn't aware that fuel injection eliminated vapor lock. After thinking about this it's the in tank fuel pump that eliminated vapor lock. Right?

Well, the pump doesn't have to be *in* the tank -- vapor lock doesn't happen on cars with the pump mounted outside (but near) the tank, either. Primarily it's the change from a puller pump to a pusher pump and the much higher system pressures -- both features used in fuel injection -- that eliminated vapor lock.

 

[High Sierra]

Well, the pump doesn't have to be *in* the tank -- vapor lock doesn't happen on cars with the pump mounted outside (but near) the tank, either. Primarily it's the change from a puller pump to a pusher pump and the much higher system pressures -- both features used in fuel injection -- that eliminated vapor lock.

OK, thanks, I get it now.

 

[Matt Whiting]

Well, the pump doesn't have to be *in* the tank -- vapor lock doesn't happen on cars with the pump mounted outside (but near) the tank, either. Primarily it's the change from a puller pump to a pusher pump and the much higher system pressures -- both features used in fuel injection -- that eliminated vapor lock.

And the fact that the fuel circulates in a continuous loop back to the fuel tank.

Matt

 

[Bill Putney]

And the fact that the fuel circulates in a continuous loop back to the fuel tank.

Matt

Or in cases of certain GM vehicles (X-bodies with V-6), that you quit designing the front bank exhaust pipe so that it does a 4" radius 180° turn with the fuel pump right at the center of radius. 8^)

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with "x")

 

[John (4)]

From original poster:

Thanks for all the replies,

by the way, the fuel pressure valve where you can measure pressure is on the fuel rail, right above the injector ports.

This idea of temperature sensor makes sense, seeing as how it stalls when it is hot. I have heard it said before that there are two coolant temperature sensors on some of these vans, but there appears to be only one on this model, and the gauge seems to work OK.

All connections seem to be clean and good, and the computer does not seem to be particularly warm.

I have a mechanic who (after telling me it was the fuel pump, and I had to correct him) now suspects the cam sensor.
SO, TWO QUESTIONS,

one, what are the symptoms of cam and crank sensor failure?

and two, what all is involved in replacing the cam sensor? (i left my shop manual in the car at the shop, and now i can't double check what they are telling me)

Thanks, To All
John Montgomery

 

[Daniel J. Stern]

This idea of temperature sensor makes sense, seeing as how it stalls when it is hot. I have heard it said before that there are two coolant temperature sensors on some of these vans, but there appears to be only one on this model, and the gauge seems to work OK.

There is only one coolant temperature *sensor*. It tells the computer the engine's operating temperature.

There is also only one coolant temperature *sender*. It talks to the dashboard gauge and tells it whether to lean towards "C" or towards "H" or to stand right in the middle.

I have a mechanic who (after telling me it was the fuel pump, and I had to correct him) now suspects the cam sensor.

And now I suspect your mechanic.

one, what are the symptoms of cam and crank sensor failure?

Engine won't run.

Your mechanic is making guesses. This will get expensive and frustrating in a very big hurry. What needs to happen is that a *competent* mechanic needs to hook a DRB or compatible scan tool to the car and _look at the data stream_, which includes the values being given by all the sensors and actuators. When the engine sputters and dies, the data stream (which can be recorded for later review on these tools) will show which sensors and actuators weren't seeing or doing what they were supposed to, and from that information the problem can be located and corrected.

 

[André (archive)]

Mike,

I agree with Daniel to have a scanner hooked up to check the sensors - the easy way.

Have you checked the fuel filler cap ?
Not sure? Try running the car with the cap not fully tightened.

Techtalk hereafter is extracted from my Alldata CDROM, 100% applicable to my car. It will include some background info, to prevent you being ripped-off.

I have a 3.3L 1993 Voyager, and it has definitely two different temp sensors. One is near the thermostat, has 2 wires, TN/BK(=sense) and BK/LB(=5V), connected to the PCM. The other one is bolted in the front cylinder head, has one wire, VT/YL, connected to the Body Controller, driving the temp gauge. Your PCM temp sensor and wiriig is probably OK, as the fan will run with open sensor. Your car has no distributor, and the ignition timing is driven by the CAM sensor. Hence, your CAM sensor is probably also OK, as the engine will not run with a faulty CAM sensor (no TDC passed to the PCM)

Now, to the point:
The PCM temp receiver circuit (inside the PCM) has two ranges, low and high temp. Range switching occurs around 125°F. Your problem could be related to a faulty PCM upper temp range. As it is so expensive to replace a PCM, it is worth to check this:
Check the voltage at the PCM temp sensor, TN/BK wire, and search for the range switching. During warm-up, the voltage will increase slowly from about 2-3V up to nearly 5V You will find the range switching as a sudden voltage drop, of a few volts. Anyway, for either a cold or hot engine, the sense voltage should be above 1-2V and below 5V.

André