Stalls and Dies 1993 Plymouth Grand Voyager 3.3

Discussion in 'Voyager' started by john, Aug 9, 2004.

  1. john

    john Guest

    I have a 1993 Plymouth Grand Voyager 3.3L.

    This Problem is tricky.

    The problem is that the vehicle stalls after running for several minutes at
    normal operating temperature, and won't restart until cool. If you start it
    completely cold, it runs great, and will consistently run about 15 minutes
    before dying.

    The engine turns but doesn't start once it is hot, as it cools, you start to
    get sputters until it is cool enough to run, but it won't run long if it is
    not cooled down a lot.

    There is good spark when it is stalled.
    Fuel Pressure is consistent and ample (48 psi)
    Starter fluid fires it right up, but then it dies when the fluid is burnt
    away.
    Computer reports no error.

    This problem is consistent.
    It is not OVERheating when it stalls.

    I AM STUMPED. I guess I can try some sensors snd relays, but I would like
    to try the most likely ones first.

    THANKS for any ideas....
     
    john, Aug 9, 2004
    #1
  2. john

    Jack Pucci Guest

    If you still have a distributer check the pickup
     
    Jack Pucci, Aug 9, 2004
    #2
  3. john

    High Sierra Guest

    Vapor Lock?
     
    High Sierra, Aug 9, 2004
    #3
  4. john

    Geoff Guest

    Okay, so ignition system *should* be alright.
    It sounds like you've eliminated the fuel pump as a problem. I'm not
    familiar enough (yet) with the 3.3 to know: are you checking fuel pressure
    at a test port downstream from the fuel pressure regulator? Have you
    verified you have pressure when the engine won't run? Have you verified
    there is voltage to the fuel pump when the engine won't run? (If so, your
    comment about 'relays' will be invalid -- the ASD relay would shut down
    the fuel pump.)
    So what appears to be happening is the fuel injectors are not firing when
    the problem occurs. You bypass the normal fuel delivery system via
    injecting ether into the intake air, and the engine runs.

    I'd try to verify this if I had the equipment to do so. Check to see if
    you're getting injector pulses at the injectors or not when the engine
    won't run.

    Interesting. Are you certain of this? Most of the sensor stuff that
    might cause a problem like this would very likely set a code.
    I think you're most of the way to a good diagnosis. I wouldn't 'try
    sensors and relays' at this point, I'd keep trying to narrow things down.

    Have you checked the 60-way connector at the engine computer for
    corrosion or other reasons for poor conductivity?

    Is there any engine air ductwork missing that might account for the engine
    controller itself overheating?

    Is the charging system delivering a consistent voltage at the battery when
    the engine runs? How about right before it dies?

    --Geoff
     
    Geoff, Aug 9, 2004
    #4
  5. john

    Geoff Guest

    I'm pretty sure none of the 3.3L engines had a distributor.

    --Geoff
     
    Geoff, Aug 9, 2004
    #5
  6. john

    jdoe Guest

    If it was vapor lock there would be no fuel pressure. My guess would be
    crank, cam or map sensor. Another item would be the egr valve. Have it
    scanned.
    Larry
     
    jdoe, Aug 9, 2004
    #6
  7. john

    André Guest

    John,

    If it is really temp related, check the temp sensors.
    There are two off ; one for the engine controller, another for the gauge.
    I believe that the resistance is 10k ohms at 25degC ; 800 ohms at operating
    temp.
    However, i 'd suspect the fuel tank cap first.

    André
     
    André, Aug 9, 2004
    #7
  8. john

    High Sierra Guest

    John wrote:
    snip
    snip

    Sounds like it's gettin spark but not gas.
     
    High Sierra, Aug 9, 2004
    #8
  9. Er...no, High Sierra, not "vapor lock". This is a fuel-injected 1993, not
    a carbureted 1973 we're discussing.

    Original poster: Does it behave the same if you remove the fuel tank cap
    before starting the engine?
     
    Daniel J. Stern, Aug 10, 2004
    #9
  10. john

    Bill Putney Guest

    OP worte "There is good spark when it is stalled".

    Bill Putney
    (to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
    address with "x")
     
    Bill Putney, Aug 10, 2004
    #10
  11. john

    Bill Putney Guest

    I was also going to suggest temp sensors as one possibility, and don't
    rule out a poor connection (corrosion, or incomplete mating) of a
    connector.
     
    Bill Putney, Aug 10, 2004
    #11
  12. john

    deadbeat Guest

    This happened to me in my old van before. It was the coolant temp sensor.
    Does not cause a code, just stalled a hell of a lot when warmed up. Work's
    fine for the first couple of miles till reaches operating temp then dies!
     
    deadbeat, Aug 10, 2004
    #12
  13. john

    High Sierra Guest

    Sorry. I wasn't aware that fuel injection eliminated vapor lock. After thinking
    about this it's the in tank fuel pump that eliminated vapor lock. Right?
     
    High Sierra, Aug 10, 2004
    #13
  14. Well, the pump doesn't have to be *in* the tank -- vapor lock doesn't
    happen on cars with the pump mounted outside (but near) the tank, either.
    Primarily it's the change from a puller pump to a pusher pump and the much
    higher system pressures -- both features used in fuel injection -- that
    eliminated vapor lock.
     
    Daniel J. Stern, Aug 10, 2004
    #14
  15. john

    High Sierra Guest

    OK, thanks, I get it now. :)
     
    High Sierra, Aug 10, 2004
    #15
  16. john

    Matt Whiting Guest

    And the fact that the fuel circulates in a continuous loop back to the
    fuel tank.

    Matt
     
    Matt Whiting, Aug 11, 2004
    #16
  17. john

    Bill Putney Guest

    Or in cases of certain GM vehicles (X-bodies with V-6), that you quit
    designing the front bank exhaust pipe so that it does a 4" radius 180°
    turn with the fuel pump right at the center of radius. 8^)

    Bill Putney
    (to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
    address with "x")
     
    Bill Putney, Aug 11, 2004
    #17
  18. john

    john Guest

    From original poster:

    Thanks for all the replies,

    by the way, the fuel pressure valve where you can measure pressure is on the
    fuel rail, right above the injector ports.

    This idea of temperature sensor makes sense, seeing as how it stalls when it
    is hot. I have heard it said before that there are two coolant temperature
    sensors on some of these vans, but there appears to be only one on this
    model, and the gauge seems to work OK.

    All connections seem to be clean and good, and the computer does not seem to
    be particularly warm.

    I have a mechanic who (after telling me it was the fuel pump, and I had to
    correct him) now suspects the cam sensor.
    SO, TWO QUESTIONS,

    one, what are the symptoms of cam and crank sensor failure?

    and two, what all is involved in replacing the cam sensor? (i left my shop
    manual in the car at the shop, and now i can't double check what they are
    telling me)

    Thanks, To All
    John Montgomery
     
    john, Aug 12, 2004
    #18
  19. There is only one coolant temperature *sensor*. It tells the computer the
    engine's operating temperature.

    There is also only one coolant temperature *sender*. It talks to the
    dashboard gauge and tells it whether to lean towards "C" or towards "H" or
    to stand right in the middle.
    And now I suspect your mechanic.
    Engine won't run.

    Your mechanic is making guesses. This will get expensive and frustrating
    in a very big hurry. What needs to happen is that a *competent* mechanic
    needs to hook a DRB or compatible scan tool to the car and _look at the
    data stream_, which includes the values being given by all the sensors and
    actuators. When the engine sputters and dies, the data stream (which can
    be recorded for later review on these tools) will show which sensors and
    actuators weren't seeing or doing what they were supposed to, and from
    that information the problem can be located and corrected.
     
    Daniel J. Stern, Aug 12, 2004
    #19
  20. john

    André Guest

    Mike,

    I agree with Daniel to have a scanner hooked up to check the sensors - the
    easy way.

    Have you checked the fuel filler cap ?
    Not sure? Try running the car with the cap not fully tightened.

    Techtalk hereafter is extracted from my Alldata CDROM, 100% applicable to my
    car.
    It will include some background info, to prevent you being ripped-off.

    I have a 3.3L 1993 Voyager, and it has definitely two different temp
    sensors.
    One is near the thermostat, has 2 wires, TN/BK(=sense) and BK/LB(=5V),
    connected to the PCM.
    The other one is bolted in the front cylinder head, has one wire, VT/YL,
    connected to the Body Controller, driving the temp gauge.
    Your PCM temp sensor and wiriig is probably OK, as the fan will run with
    open sensor.
    Your car has no distributor, and the ignition timing is driven by the CAM
    sensor.
    Hence, your CAM sensor is probably also OK, as the engine will not run with
    a faulty CAM sensor (no TDC passed to the PCM)

    Now, to the point:
    The PCM temp receiver circuit (inside the PCM) has two ranges, low and high
    temp.
    Range switching occurs around 125°F.
    Your problem could be related to a faulty PCM upper temp range.
    As it is so expensive to replace a PCM, it is worth to check this:
    Check the voltage at the PCM temp sensor, TN/BK wire, and search for the
    range switching.
    During warm-up, the voltage will increase slowly from about 2-3V up to
    nearly 5V
    You will find the range switching as a sudden voltage drop, of a few volts.
    Anyway, for either a cold or hot engine, the sense voltage should be above
    1-2V and below 5V.

    André
     
    André, Aug 12, 2004
    #20
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