Shop Manual & Parts Manual on CD-ROM Standard Equipment

[George Orwell]

A new Federal regulation to make MANDATORY as standard equipment the service and parts manuals on CD-ROM is long overdue.

Along with your owner's manual, these CD-ROMs must go with every new car. They will fit compactly in pockets in the cover of the owner's manual.

Why is this so vitally important? If you need emergency or elective repairs by an independent service facility, any competent technician will find the information he needs to make a time-efficient, economic repair. Without them, he is dead in the water in most instances. Also, after diagnosing the problem, he will be able to order the exact part(s) required by fax or telephone, eliminating ambiguity and saving much time and money for all parties.

Motor's Manual, Haynes, Glenn's, etc. do not provide the wealth of in-depth service information that the factory manuals do. There is no substitute for a genuine F.S.M. and P.M.

Presently, one can purchase service manuals at high cost but few owners do and thus are not available when needed. Please note that GM does not offer factory parts manuals for sale at any price. CD-ROM's cost only pennies to produce; they will add negligible cost to a new car. True, they cost a lot to create, but they are already created for use by the dealerships; to give them away per regulation would add only the cost of the actual CD-ROM's, which everybody knows the blanks cost about 25 cents retail.

In the meantime, buy or ask for them free of extra charge, both the service manual and parts manual on every new car you buy. Do not patronize any car manufacturer who cannot supply both; ie, GM.

 

[Jeff (archive)]

Can you please give us more info on the federal law, like the bill # or at least name?

Jeff

 

[philthy]

gee i get copies from the techs i know at the local dealers. they just burn ones for me

 

[bllsht]

Gee... You mean your hot-shot independant shop won't even pop for service maunals? Sounds like a classy joint!

 

[Tim J.]

Can you please give us more info on the federal law, like the bill # or at least name?

There isn't one. This is either:

1. The wet dream of a clueless individual.
2. Another trolling attempt through an anonymous remailer.

 

[Ted Mittelstaedt]

Can you please give us more info on the federal law, like the bill # or at least name?

You don't get it. There is no federal law. He's just spouting off what he thinks would be a good idea. It is an idea, of course, that a lot of other people have already thought of.

Ted

 

[sdlomi2]

A new Federal regulation to make MANDATORY as standard equipment the service and parts manuals on CD-ROM is long overdue.

Along with your owner's manual, these CD-ROMs must go with every new car. They will fit compactly in pockets in the cover of the owner's manual.

Why is this so vitally important? If you need emergency or elective repairs by an independent service facility, any competent technician will find the information he needs to make a time-efficient, economic repair. Without them, he is dead in the water in most instances. Also, after diagnosing the problem, he will be able to order the exact part(s) required by fax or telephone, eliminating ambiguity and saving much time and money for all parties.

Motor's Manual, Haynes, Glenn's, etc. do not provide the wealth of in-depth service information that the factory manuals do. There is no substitute for a genuine F.S.M. and P.M.

Presently, one can purchase service manuals at high cost but few owners do and thus are not available when needed. Please note that GM does not offer factory parts manuals for sale at any price. CD-ROM's cost only pennies to produce; they will add negligible cost to a new car. True, they cost a lot to create, but they are already created for use by the dealerships; to give them away per regulation would add only the cost of the actual CD-ROM's, which everybody knows the blanks cost about 25 cents retail.

In the meantime, buy or ask for them free of extra charge, both the service manual and parts manual on every new car you buy. Do not patronize any car manufacturer who cannot supply both; ie, GM.

At this link, you can purchase, affordably, a CD with info about factory service tips and Technical Service Bulletins and Recalls for any car. Right decent info for the diy'er. s

 

[Bill Putney]

At this link, you can purchase, affordably, a CD with info about factory service tips and Technical Service Bulletins and Recalls for any car. Right decent info for the diy'er. s

If the info. is not right out of the FSM, it's probably worthless. If the schematics are like what's in all aftermarket manuals, they are worthless (i.e., a "typical" schematic being used on a specific vehicle is about as useful as using a "typical" any old road map to go from one specific location to another.

Can you tell us that the scehmatics are exactly what's in the FSM for the exact year and vehicle?

*IF* the procedural info. is right out of the FSM, how complete is it? (Alldata falls short in this area - the info. that is there *is* out of the FSM, but it is not anywhere near complete).

With AllData, you get complete, accurate schematics, access to full TSB's, and procedural info. (although admittedly incomplete) right out of the FSM for a better price: 1st vehicle is $25 for a year, vs. $30. 2nd vehicle (or any renewals) are $15 for a year for the same price that that company gives for only a month! Unless the schematics are complete and accurate and the repair procedure info. is a lot more complete than AllData's, that's not a very good value.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')

 

[William R. Walsh]

Hi!

If the info. is not right out of the FSM, it's probably worthless.

Why is this the case?

I ask out of pure curiosity and the hope that you (or anyone else) might have an idea or even know the exact reason.

William

 

[sdlomi2]

If the info. is not right out of the FSM, it's probably worthless. If the schematics are like what's in all aftermarket manuals, they are worthless (i.e., a "typical" schematic being used on a specific vehicle is about as useful as using a "typical" any old road map to go from one specific location to another.

Can you tell us that the scehmatics are exactly what's in the FSM for the exact year and vehicle?

*IF* the procedural info. is right out of the FSM, how complete is it? (Alldata falls short in this area - the info. that is there *is* out of the FSM, but it is not anywhere near complete).

With AllData, you get complete, accurate schematics, access to full TSB's, and procedural info. (although admittedly incomplete) right out of the FSM for a better price: 1st vehicle is $25 for a year, vs. $30. 2nd vehicle (or any renewals) are $15 for a year for the same price that that company gives for only a month! Unless the schematics are complete and accurate and the repair procedure info. is a lot more complete than AllData's, that's not a very good value.

Bill Putney

Thanks, Bill for all the enlightenment. No, I cannot, and will not attempt to, tell you any of the answers you queried me on. I only Googled for any helpful info for the OP and found and quit searching when this product showed its head, be it pretty or ugly. And I am not trying to sell anything, just help. And I never said it was a good value--don't believe anyone attempting to sell or sway another would describe the product as " Right decent info for the diy'er". The OP wanted info on TSBs, and this
*says* it furnishes that: and before being asked, NO I cannot & would not guarantee it has even ONE TSB, and much less would I guarantee a more nearly complete list of TSBs or schematics than AllData. Heck, it could all be merely a scam! It seems you have found for him a better product for the money than the one I furnished. Good going! I'm happy you did and I'm sure the OP does too. I felt that with my furnishing one it could motivate him to search for more help now knowing some is available. After all, SOME help would have to be superior to NO help. Thanks, Bill, for furnishing an even superior product for him. Had my Googling lead me to AllData first, that's the one I'd have sent him. With one of these--or maybe he will find an even better one--he should be armed with access to some of the TSBs and Recalls--and you can be sure to tell him that neither the TSBs or Recalls are guaranteed complete and up to date. Should he wonder why, I'm sure you could also explain to him that both new TSBs and Recalls could be issued just moments after the (AllData, Mitchell, or whomever sells in this aftermarket field) latest version of their product was "completed"; all due to the fact that they both are on-going processes.
BTW: I have friends using each of the 2 you and I discussed. I've also found, like you mentioned, that some of their info is only just a little better than Chilton's & nowhere nearly as good as service manuals. I presently have a subscription to one of the 2 discussed and have excellent help, at times. But, I have been greatly disappointed in the mediocrity of some of their info --some of it is so limited that you and I each likely have imprinted in our minds a better coverage than they sometimes offer. For COMPLETE coverage of some topics, I immediately bypass my computer repair program and go directly to a friend at the Caddy-Chev dealership where I feel pretty confident I can get all the needed info from shop manuals in one trip; same with the service mgr. at the Pont-Buick-GMC and the Honda d'ships; and with a lesser relationship but still obtainable invaluable info from the Ford, the Chrysler, the Mazda, Toyota, & Nissan stores. The OP had a good suggestion: putting the service/shop manuals on CD (or DVD). Man, I'd love to have access to those. The idea of putting parts and part-numbers on CD, though, may not work so well & might present more problems if every Bill, Sam, and George tried to take an order we compiled to the parts dept--any novice ever having tried to look up p#s (in a collision guide)needed for a wrecked car should attest to this confusing project as he tries to get each piece he needs w/out getting MORE than he needs. He may even waste valuable hours on something as simple as trying to buy just one outside front door handle for a Taurus that uses the 'keypad entry' system. Altho' he needs just the broken one, he's gotta buy both: & nobody, I guess, changes the good side! --make sense??? Gonna call it a night. Should you ever find the shop/manuals on CD, PLEASE let me know. I'll do the same. And when it comes to our shelling out the $, if you'll find the best deal, I'll order them, let you get copies, & we'll split the cost!!! Have a good, restful night (which is better than a "right decent nite's sleep": there IS a difference!). sam

 

[Joe Pfeiffer]

Hi!

Why is this the case?

Because the FSM is written by a close approximation to the people who designed the procedure in the first place. Other sources are written by close approximations to chimpanzees who once saw the procedure done on a different vehicle, for a different year, on an engine that might have been of the same family as the one you're working on.

I expect doing a search on "chilton" or "haynes" on google groups for this newsgroup would give a better explanation. Most of the posts will (I expect) take the form "my X manual said to remove the framizatt and I can't find it. What do I do?"

I ask out of pure curiosity and the hope that you (or anyone else) might have an idea or even know the exact reason.

The exact reason (when I say it, over and over) is my own experience. I've bought non-OEM manuals before I knew the sources for the real ones. I've found inexplicable gaping holes in the real ones, but not to anything like the level of stupid inaccuracy of the others.

 

[Bill Putney]

Thanks, Bill for all the enlightenment. No, I cannot, and will not attempt to, tell you any of the answers you queried me on. I only Googled for any helpful info for the OP and found and quit searching when this product showed its head, be it pretty or ugly. And I am not trying to sell anything, just help. And I never said it was a good value--don't believe anyone attempting to sell or sway another would describe the product as " Right decent info for the diy'er". The OP wanted info on TSBs, and this
*says* it furnishes that: and before being asked, NO I cannot & would not guarantee it has even ONE TSB, and much less would I guarantee a more nearly complete list of TSBs or schematics than AllData. Heck, it could all be merely a scam! It seems you have found for him a better product for the money than the one I furnished. Good going! I'm happy you did and I'm sure the OP does too. I felt that with my furnishing one it could motivate him to search for more help now knowing some is available. After all, SOME help would have to be superior to NO help. Thanks, Bill, for furnishing an even superior product for him. Had my Googling lead me to AllData first, that's the one I'd have sent him. With one of these--or maybe he will find an even better one--he should be armed with access to some of the TSBs and Recalls--and you can be sure to tell him that neither the TSBs or Recalls are guaranteed complete and up to date. Should he wonder why, I'm sure you could also explain to him that both new TSBs and Recalls could be issued just moments after the (AllData, Mitchell, or whomever sells in this aftermarket field) latest version of their product was "completed"; all due to the fact that they both are on-going processes.
BTW: I have friends using each of the 2 you and I discussed. I've also found, like you mentioned, that some of their info is only just a little better than Chilton's & nowhere nearly as good as service manuals. I presently have a subscription to one of the 2 discussed and have excellent help, at times. But, I have been greatly disappointed in the mediocrity of some of their info --some of it is so limited that you and I each likely have imprinted in our minds a better coverage than they sometimes offer. For COMPLETE coverage of some topics, I immediately bypass my computer repair program and go directly to a friend at the Caddy-Chev dealership where I feel pretty confident I can get all the needed info from shop manuals in one trip; same with the service mgr. at the Pont-Buick-GMC and the Honda d'ships; and with a lesser relationship but still obtainable invaluable info from the Ford, the Chrysler, the Mazda, Toyota, & Nissan stores. The OP had a good suggestion: putting the service/shop manuals on CD (or DVD). Man, I'd love to have access to those. The idea of putting parts and part-numbers on CD, though, may not work so well & might present more problems if every Bill, Sam, and George tried to take an order we compiled to the parts dept--any novice ever having tried to look up p#s (in a collision guide)needed for a wrecked car should attest to this confusing project as he tries to get each piece he needs w/out getting MORE than he needs. He may even waste valuable hours on something as simple as trying to buy just one outside front door handle for a Taurus that uses the 'keypad entry' system. Altho' he needs just the broken one, he's gotta buy both: & nobody, I guess, changes the good side! --make sense??? Gonna call it a night. Should you ever find the shop/manuals on CD, PLEASE let me know. I'll do the same. And when it comes to our shelling out the $, if you'll find the best deal, I'll order them, let you get copies, & we'll split the cost!!! Have a good, restful night (which is better than a "right decent nite's sleep": there IS a difference!). sam

Sorry if I came across as critical (of you). You have a close place in my heart - I have a brother named Sam.

The product you linked may be just as good as AllData - I don't know. I just know that anythiung I've ever seen (Chiltons, Haynes) not taken right from the FSM is, 9 times out of 10, inaccurate to the point of almost being fraudulent (schematics and repair procedures - like describing replacing a timing belt on a particular engine, and the procedures and illustrations being of a totally different engine nothing like the one than what came in the car).

I have AllData for most of my personal vehicles *and* an FSM for each. If it wasn't for the TSB's (which are BTW complete and constantly updated as new ones come out - can't do that on a CD) and the actual complete set of schematics (again right out of the FSM) provided by AllData, I'd say they would be a waste of money (referring to the somewhat accurate but incomplete other information - such as procedures and descriptive "how does it work" and "where is it located" type of stuff - (not) included in their subscription).

I do have complete FSM's in pdf format for a couple of my LH vehicles stored on my hard drive.

Night night.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')

 

[Bill Putney]

Because the FSM is written by a close approximation to the people who designed the procedure in the first place. Other sources are written by close approximations to chimpanzees who once saw the procedure done on a different vehicle, for a different year, on an engine that might have been of the same family as the one you're working on.

I expect doing a search on "chilton" or "haynes" on google groups for this newsgroup would give a better explanation. Most of the posts will (I expect) take the form "my X manual said to remove the framizatt and I can't find it. What do I do?"

The exact reason (when I say it, over and over) is my own experience. I've bought non-OEM manuals before I knew the sources for the real ones. I've found inexplicable gaping holes in the real ones, but not to anything like the level of stupid inaccuracy of the others.

That's pretty much it. The last straw for me was, after I had been burned a couple of times with Haynes manuals "typical" schematics and I had promised myself never to buy another one, I cheaped out and got Haynes for a used car we got for my daughter. Long story short, I ended up replacing a perfectly good factory alternator with an always inferior aftermarket rebuilt because the "typical" schematic in the Haynes did not show a MegaFuse hidden in the hot wire going to the alternator that had fractured (not blown, but mechanically fractured). Inferior rebuilt alernator cost $260. An FSM would have cost under $100. So did I save money on the $13 Haynes manual? You do the math.

Also - that schematic wasn't even "typical" - there was not a single vehicle of that model of any year ever produced without that fuse that was left out of the schematic. So it wasn't even "typical".

The next day, I ordered an FSM for the car.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')

 

[Dipstick]

Which, by the way, I have also found to be inadequate and inaccurate in many cases. Certainly worlds better than the generic stuff, though. Even my 2006 Grand Prix owner's manual has a woefully incorrect procedure for replacing the cabin air filter.

 

[Bill Putney]

Which, by the way, I have also found to be inadequate and inaccurate in many cases. Certainly worlds better than the generic stuff, though. Even my 2006 Grand Prix owner's manual has a woefully incorrect procedure for replacing the cabin air filter.

That's true. I have said here and on other forums that the Ford and GM FSM's that I have owned or used for my personal and acquaintances' vehicles were woefully inferior to the FSM I have for the Chrysler LH car (probably the Ford was the worst of the three - still better than aftermarket manuals, but not by much - it was a Ford that that fuse/alternator issue was on, and the FSM *did* show that fuse in the schematics, but the repair and other info. in that manual was absolute crap).

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')