Question about engine oil sludge

You have probably heard about oil sludge problems causing engine failure on
several engines including the Chrysler 2.7L V6 used in Intrepids from
1998-2004, Toyota 3L V6 used in Camry's and even the Volkswagen 1.8L Turbo
engine used in lots of VWs and Audis. The common reason given is too
infrequent oil changes. The fix is to use synthetic oil and keep it current.

That's what I thought, but last Saturday, I was listening to a show on the
radio in Denver called NAPA auto care. The mechanics said that the sludging
problem is actually caused by a combination of distributor-less high energy
ignition systems and coolant that had not been changed. Evidently, the
fast-rising current spike travelling through the block induces sludging???

I found that very confusing. Do any of you know more, or were these guys
just trying to scare up some business?

 

I've certainly heard lots about the problem, but that's the first I've
heard that explanation. I'm not ready to totally discount it until I
hear more, but I'm having a very hard time imagining how coolant (that
is not leaking internally) can cause sludge in the crankcase! Are the
ignition current spikes supposed to disturb gasket interfaces and thus
cause the coolant to leak into the crankcase and form sludge with the oil?

Willing to listen...

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
adddress with the letter 'x')

 

Could it be perhaps that the worn-out coolant becomes less inductive than
the aluminum head? If so, the current would flow into the least inductive
path (remember, this is an AC spike)

Could that potentially cause local heating of small oil passages in the
engine? I think these engines run hotter to meet emissions, and maybe this
is enough to cause sludge?

Inquiring mind need to know!!

 

Just to give more data: I have not even once changed the coolant in my
2.7l which now has 205,000 kms (127,000 mi). Also I'm on my second
synthetic oil change without catastrophe. And of note: my commute has
recently been reduced from 70kms each way to about 20 kms each way. I
will update the group with any change in the, what I would now call
dependability, of my motor.

 

I've got exactly the same miles on my '99 2.7L, and it runs fantasticly.
I am changing the coolant for the first time this weekend (don't know
if it was done previously - I bought it with 58k miles on the ticker).
Hope things continue well for you with the synth at this high mileage on
a sludge-prone engine (I assume your point was that you changed over to
synth at high mileage). If no problems so far, you're probably OK, but
IMO you took a big risk. My daily commute is 80 miles, 90+% 55-60 mph.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
adddress with the letter 'x')

 

We traditionally call "sludge" is a substance caused by motor oil exposed to
normal motor temperatures plus water and other combustion contamination that
forms a mixture of various compounds that participate out of the oil. Over
time these compounds can coke-up and form a solid mass.

Synthetic oil tends to avoid this by doing a better job of keeping the
compounds in suspension and a better job of dealing with the acids that form
when the compounds are exposed to water. Any detergent oil will quickly
disolve the hardest deposits if change frequently enough, perhaps every 500
miles, till the sludge and hard mass is desolved.

More likely a problem caused by 1. poor design of the lub system, 2. changed
fuel mixtures, 3. failure to use an oil that can deal with the changed fuel
mixtures, and 4. not letting the motor come up to full running temperature.

The reports you hear about spark, coolant, etc., are pure magic.

Richard.

 

Please post your VIN so that nobody reading here wil buy your car when
you sell it. Not maintaining a car is like not taking care of your
body. It may not fail today, but it will ... just a matter of when.


Matt

 

Sure, here ya go:

Xn3o2b3o9d8y4a7s3k9e4d0y5o8u3

You have no idea how I maintain my car. It's running fine, thanks, and
as with every single car I've ever owned, well into it's high mileage
years. But don't think I don't appreciate your opinion, I have a very
special place where I keep opinions just like yours.

 

127,000 miles on the original coolant is not proper maintenance. You
must value my opinion or you wouldn't have bothered to respond.


Matt

 

Well, you certainly have an opinion and I encourage that from special
people like you.

No, I don't. If that's how you epect to sneak your idiocy through
Usenet, sorry, everyone knows that trick. But, hey, I'll give you a
chance. Give one good reason why you thought it was a good idea to
challenge me on this subject, but not Bill Putney? I mean, he claimed
to have not changed his coolant until the same mileage as me. And he
said that hours before you offered your well thought out post. Could it
be that you see your place in the scheme of things as a small little man
that really hasn't yet challenged anyone in the outside world that's
willing to trounce you. Because, that's pretty much how I read it.
Feel free to enlighten me otherwise.

 

Matt, don't bother. I'll tell it to him again since he obviously doesen't
have
it through his thick head yet. Pawn, 127,000 miles on the original coolant
is not proper maintenance.

Ted

 

Because I know that Bill is already hopeless.

Also, you made a comment about being only your second oil change. That
is even worse, although, the way you phrased it, it could be that you
just recently changed to synthetic oil and it is just your second change
on synthetic, but that wasn't clear from your post.


Matt

 

Aaahhh..a misunderstanding. That *would* be horribly negligent. Sorry.

 

Gee - thanks, Matt. Actually, a body shop replaced the coolant about 3
years ago when making accident repairs (hose got punctured) - this will
be the first time *I* am replacing it. I just didn't feel it was
necessary to explain every insiginificant detail. My posts are
generally long enough as it is. 8^)

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
adddress with the letter 'x')

 

I just couldn't resist! Glad to hear that you aren't a maintenance
laggard like the other poster.


Matt

 

Toyota PROMISED to take care of this problem. Apparently, it hasn't
notified all 3.3 million owners nor is it interested in actually
following through with this program! HOT AIR from Toyota! When is
Toyota going to really take the responsibility for the defective
engines?!?





ALERT! Toyota Engine Oil Gelation (Sludge) Policy....READ!

Has Toyota notified you about its "Customer Support Program" for
"Engine Oil Gelation?"

Who: Owners of 1997-2002 Toyota and Lexus vehicles with 3.0L IMZ V-6
engines and all 1997-2001 Toyota vehicles with the now discontinued
2.2L
four cylinder engines. Nine models are included.

What: Engine oil sludge accumulation in the oil pan, valve covers,
and/or
cylinder heads with possible symptoms such as blue smoke on cold start
up
and oil consumption. Toyota maintains this "oil gelation" is caused by
the
owner's improper maintenance of the vehicle! The owners disagree.

When: Former, current, and repeat repairs for sludge-related damage are
covered for a period of 8 years from date of first sale or lease with
unlimited mileage. This coverage includes all reasonable incidental
expenses. If questions, consult with affected owners in the groups
listed
below.

Where: Effective April 3, 2002. Contact the Toyota hotline at
1-888-802-9436. You'll be asked to show a reasonable effort (not all
oil
change receipts are required) to regularly maintain your vehicle.
Toyota
considers this a generous offer especially since the owner is at fault!
Proceed cautiously.

What if you have received no letter? OR, you want more information?

1) First, notify Toyota via certified letter with return receipt
requested
and give your case details. Let it know you have NOT received your
letter.
Ask it when you will get your letter, too.

2) Notify the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration at
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov and the Federal Trade Commission at
http://www.ftc.gov. NHTSA: 1-800-424-9393.

3) Also, file with the Center for Auto Safety at
http://www.autosafety.org
and Consumer Affairs at http://www.consumeraffairs.com. Read other
owner
stories there.

4) Visit the "Toyota" folder in Cartrackers "Forums" at
http://www.cartrackers.com and find the links to articles listed there.
You
should also post your own story there for others to read.

5) Read the third Automotive News article "Toyota broadens
sludge-repair
program--Automaker alters V-6, insists neglect is cause" by Richard
Truett
published on April 4, 2002.

What if you want to do MORE in the way of consumer action? OR, you
don't
qualify for CSP?

6) Join other owners in the "Toyota Sludge Yahoo Group" at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/toyotasludge. Subscribe at
"." Post at
"."

7) Join "Toyota Owners Unite for Resolution" at
http://communities.msn.com/ToyotaOwnersUniteForResolution. Read other
owner
stories there.

8) Visit the "Complaint Station for Toyota" at
http://www.thecomplaintstation.com. Please ignore those who are
strongly
countering the legitimate complaints of other Toyota owners who have
had
major problems.

9) Visit Edmund's Town Hall at http://www.edmunds.com. First, you must
obtain a login and password to be able to access the original (over
6,000
posts) "Engine Sludge?" discussion that began January 5, 2001. There
are
other Toyota sludge discussions. All Toyota sludge discussions have
been
CLOSED at this site as of May, 2002.

10) Read other stories and post your own at http://www.RipOffReport.com
under "Toyota" or "Lexus."

11) Contact for more resources and links, as well as
to
discuss other concerns with your Toyota vehicle, customer service, or
warranty issues. Network with other owners to stay informed on these
auto
consumer matters and to work collectively! Stay-tuned

 

Get a stake!

 

Sludge in an engine is only caused by two things, the Oil and the Engine.
If the engine has extreme amounts of blow by (leaking rings or valve seals)
it will contaminate the oil with carbon and cause sludge. The second, is
not changing the oil frequently enough according to both the manufactures
recommendations and your driving habits. The tell tail for a leaky engine is
oil consumption, if you are using a quart or more with in an oil change the
engine is probably the problem. If you do not the problem is the operator
not changing the oil as frequently as needed as required by the
manufacturers maintenance schedule. Toyota provides two service intervals
as does most manufacturers if an owner does not follow them or exceed the
requirements they are at fault.

An owner can check their engine on a diagnostic scope at a specialized
repair facility that specializes in engine trouble shooting. The test will
tell if it is the engine or the owners failure to follow the maintenance
schedule. If it is the engine Toyota will be required to fix it if it is
under warranty but if you have a 100K on your engine you cannot expect a
manufacturer to take up the slack because an owner failed to use good
judgment. Some of the responsibility needs to fall on the owners too for
failure to notice the problem or high oil consumption. Our society wants to
blame everything on someone else for their own ineptness and faults, Toyota
could be at fault for kicking out some poor engines but giving their track
record that is highly unlikely only time will tell.

HarryS

 

Also, what I failed to mention is that the major cause of blow by (Leaking
rings and valve seals) is improper engine break in and not changing your
oil, Catch 22
HarryS

 

And a silver bullet, just to be safe.