Quality of Pacifca vs Aspen?

Discussion in 'Other Models' started by John W, Nov 10, 2003.

  1. John W

    Neil Guest

    The reliability data is taken from surveys of readers who own the

    Anyway, the Pacifica seems like an interesting vehicle and I hope it
    does well.

    BTW, speaking of CR, they review the new German-built Chrysler
    Crossfire in the December issue. To sum it up, CR said it's more of a
    cruiser than a sporty car. Of the models tested, the Crossfire tied
    for best mileage, at 22 mpg overall.
    Neil, Nov 11, 2003
  2. I know. I've subscribed to CR for about two decades. This is the
    problem. Asking people their recollection of things that have happened
    over a five year period is fraught with peril. And it is a
    self-selected sample, which violates almost every tenet of statistical
    sampling. There are many issues also with the consistency of the
    presentation of their data as many others have pointed out here recently.

    They also said it was based on 7 year-old technology. So much for the
    "new" Crossfire. And they ranked it 12th in a list of 14 cars in the class.

    Fuel economy was about the only bright spot in the test. And the 350Z
    tied the Crossfire in this category while having FAR better performance.
    The Nissan posted 0-60 in 5.4s vs 7.2 for the Crossfire. The Crossfire
    was pretty pathetic if the CR test can be trusted ... which I'm not sure
    it can.


    Matthew S. Whiting, Nov 11, 2003
  3. John W

    Art Begun Guest

    I have a Chrysler 300M and a Toyota Avalon. Both my wife and I prefer
    the CHrysler. The Avalon is a rattle box and many features work
    poorly (rear defroster, auto climate control, heated seats). It is
    quieter than the 300M but that just makes it easiler to hear the
    rattles and clicks. Consumer Reports says it is a bit more reliable
    but the American cars have improved a lot since the old days so in my
    opinion the import isn't worth the extra bucks. I've owened 3
    Chryslers, 3 Toyotas, 2 Fords, 1 GM, 2 Subaru since 1975. The 300M is
    the best car I've owned by far.
    Art Begun, Nov 11, 2003
  4. John W

    Art Begun Guest

    Give us all a break. Just because a bunch of countries have a history
    of ultra-corruption that prevents a middle class from building up,
    that doesn't mean the American worker is at fault for getting a decent
    wage. You want to look at people being paid too much then look at a
    few CEO's.
    Art Begun, Nov 11, 2003
  5. Well, I am trying to make the point that deciding what's 'imported' or not
    is a pointless exercise. This topic is a perennial here.

    Consumers buy the cars they like, whether on looks, price, quality
    (perceived or otherwise) etc. If the government slaps on barriers (e.g. the
    imported-steel tariffs in the USA), the 'shape' of the demand may shift a
    bit, but you CAN'T STOP THE TIDE (to mix my metaphors).


    NB: To reply directly replace "nospam" with "schmetterling"
    Dori Schmetterling, Nov 11, 2003
  6. Southern Ontario, eh. I thought that's part of the US anyway...

    Dori Schmetterling, Nov 11, 2003
  7. John W

    Geoff Guest

    I find it hard to believe you subscribe to CR.

    And we find it hard to believe you're a university professor, much less a
    chemist, but we digress.

    Geoff, Nov 11, 2003
  8. John W

    Greg Guest

    Umm, no. All surveys are NOT self selected. (Learn some science here) A
    scientific (statistical science) survey is sent to random members of the
    population being sampled. If you care about owner experiences with a particular
    car make & model, than owners of that make & model are your population. A
    scientific survey would pick owners of that make & model at random and survey
    those random owners (the SAMPLE). The size of the sample vs the population
    determines the accuracy of the represenation. The number of surveys sent out to
    each sample is known, and the number of returned survey is known too. CR sends
    surveys to all of their magazine subscribers, and self select ONLY their
    magazine subscribers which is not a representative sample of any particular make
    and model . They self select on the basis of their magazine purchasing. There is
    no random sampling, in fact quite the opposite. You can call CR whatever you
    want, but its car reliability reports are not based on any random sampling, which
    is what statistical science is based upon. Furthermore, a scientific survey will
    also report its margin of error, at a minimum.
    Greg, Nov 11, 2003
  9. Sometimes difficult, but I don't think pointless.

    What tide? The exportation of manufacturing from the US? Increased
    market share of imports? What?

    Matthew S. Whiting, Nov 11, 2003
  10. And I didn't have to read Lloyd's drivel until you responded to it. :)
    Filters are a wonderful thing. Since I kill-filed Lloyd, I've got
    back to reading more rationaly and meaningful posts.

    Trying to educate Lloyd is like trying to teach a pig to dance.

    Matthew S. Whiting, Nov 11, 2003
  11. John W

    Billccm Guest

    You know, I read somewhere that the worst car on the market today is better
    than the best car built in 1985. So, does that mean that a 2004 KIA is better
    than a 1985 Honda Accord?
    Just wondering
    88 Lancer Shelby
    91 LeBaron Convertible
    01 Chevy Impala LS
    Billccm, Nov 12, 2003
  12. John W

    Billccm Guest

    Didn't Consumer Reports just rate the Buick Regal as the most reliable car on
    sale in the US market?
    88 Lancer Shelby
    91 LeBaron Convertible
    01 Chevy Impala LS
    Billccm, Nov 12, 2003
  13. I can't speak for an 85 Accord, but my 84 was a piece of crap and any
    car made in 2004 would be better than that. I drove a Kia Sorento on
    vacation in FL last winter and it was a nice driving vehicle. The only
    complaint was horrific fuel mileage ... maybe 16 MPG on the highway.

    Matthew S. Whiting, Nov 12, 2003
  14. This is obvious horseshit. All it shows is the seemy underbelly of freedom
    of the press.

    Daniel J. Stern, Nov 12, 2003
  15. John W

    Lloyd Parker Guest

    And those people decide for themselves whether to participate, right? So
    they're selecting themselves. Or do you think someone holds a gun to their
    heads and makes them respond?
    Lloyd Parker, Nov 12, 2003
  16. In this case I was thinking of the 'tide' of cars that US-based buyers
    prefer to buy. Some may care if the vehicle is assembled in Auburn Hills or
    Tokyo, most probably not. And beyond assembly, who looks at the supplier of
    the components? And who is/are the manufacturers of these components? And
    if it's Siemens, are all the elements made in Germany or maybe in Japan
    (Fujitsu is a business partner)? Or maybe they have a factory in Malaysia?
    And are the subelements sourced from Taiwan?

    And design? Italy, California? And who are the designers? Americans based
    in America? Americans based on Germany? British nationals in the USA? And
    who are the decision makers who decide which design is adopted? Where are
    they based?

    And who are the shareholders of the various companies involved, right from
    the final assembly corporation (such as Honda) to the filament producer of
    the headlamp?

    Let me give an example from my own business. We had a problem with an
    electronic component with a machine we supplied to a client in Guangzhou
    (southern China). The component had been bought via the Canadian rep of
    what seems to be an 'arch-American' company. (Canada is where this machine
    was/is made.). The tech problem occurred during the SARS outbreak and,
    because of a corporate edict, the Shanghai-based technician from that
    component supplier was not allowed to travel. But where was this committee
    that decided this? In Japan, as the component supplier was owned by a big
    Japanese company. So it's a Japanese company, right? They're still big in
    electronics, right? Wrong. The ultimate owner is a giant French

    Oh, and the faulty component itself was made in a south-east Asian factory.
    Although we/our suppliuer were hit by this manufacturing fault, our losses
    were relatively minor. This factory had been supplying faulty components
    for months (unwittingly, we assume) to many of the world's big computer
    suppliers such as Hewlett-Packard, who was leading a class-action suit
    against them...

    I think you get my drift...

    Dori Schmetterling, Nov 12, 2003
  17. Is that as hard as getting one to fly?

    Dori Schmetterling, Nov 12, 2003
  18. John W

    Geoff Guest

    Here in Detroit we think about these things. Contrary to the way it might
    seem, we here are not all employed directly by one of the former 'Big Three'
    car companies. The landscape is literally covered by small and medium sized
    businesses who are the suppliers. Word gets around town when so-and-so the
    supplier gets the big contract to make seats or taillights or brake pads--or
    has it taken away. When DCX pulled the seating contract from Arvin Meritor
    a few months ago, for example, it was front page news.

    My earliest employment experiences included a stint oiling blanks that were
    stamped into GM alternator brackets. I've hardened A/C compressor parts,
    I've chrome plated various interior dooddads, and I've learned to watch out
    for the hi-lo drivers, they're the biggest kamikazes on the planet. My dad
    has made a living working in the supplier tier of the industry -- he's only
    worked for one of the Big Three--Ford--directly one time, back in the 1960s
    in R&D. (My uncles and other relatives are a different story.) Personally,
    I've made a very good living writing program code and, earlier, doing
    systems support for companies contracted by Ford, DCX and GM. Everywhere
    you look for employment in this town -- and it's a big town, lots of square
    mileage, nearly 5 million residents -- you end up working somehow for the
    car business. A good morning around here isn't a quiet morning -- the
    silence is broken by the thousands of punch presses, milling machines and
    semi tractor/trailers which help us earn our livings. There are places I
    could take you -- Mound Road around 9 Mile comes to mind -- where you can
    almost feel the ground shake! It's like Hollywood in this respect: sooner
    or later everyone out there is working for the movie/entertainment business.

    And it shows on our freeways. You will probably go to no other place in
    America (although I read recently that much of Ontario is the same) and see
    a greater percentage of domestic brands on the road. We even have sizeable
    numbers of cars that don't make it anywhere else in our everyday fleet, like
    the Aztec, or the T-Bird. I see a different SSR (ugly frickin' thing) on
    the road nearly every morning on my way to work. You can't swing a dead cat
    without denting a Stratus or Grand Am. Yeah, there's a few people out there
    driving Camrys or Accords. We try to ignore their Greenpeace bumper
    stickers as we pass them for doing 55 in the left lane.

    So if you see people getting emotional about where cars are built, or who
    took which company over, or who is being laid off, or who is getting a good
    new product into their mix--or who isn't, remember: there's one *hell* of a
    lot of people in southeast Michigan whose ability to put food on their
    tables and Christmas presents under their trees depend on this stuff. And
    right now, a lot of us feel pretty beleagured. We've got one of the worst
    unemployment rates in the nation -- around 7%, which is a fairly dramatic
    difference from the national average, which has been going down lately. Our
    rate has continued to increase. Frankly, it pisses us off to find out that
    Eaton let himself get hoodwinked into selling Chrysler to Daimler-Benz.
    It's easy for some to sit in Virginia or Georgia and say, well, that's
    macroeconomics at work, too bad. It's always easier when it doesn't affect
    what you can do for your own children, of which I have two myself.


    Geoff, Nov 12, 2003
  19. John W

    Geoff Guest

    I can get a pig to fly using a cannon with a suitable bore diameter. Not
    sure how you'd get one to dance.


    Geoff, Nov 12, 2003
  20. John W

    Neil Guest

    No, but there is some good news about the Regal. CR's web site
    (www.consumerreports.org) calls the latest model a "a very reliable
    vehicle" in the following:

    "The aging Regal is an acceptable car, but nothing special compared
    with its newer, more advanced competition. Drawbacks include ungainly
    handling (the optional Gran Touring suspension improves that somewhat)
    and front seats that become less comfortable the longer you sit in
    them. On the plus side, the Regal rides well at lower speeds, has a
    quiet cabin, and features a smooth-shifting transmission. It's been a
    very reliable vehicle. The standard 3.8-liter V6 puts out 200 hp. A
    240-hp supercharged version powers the GS model, making it fast,
    though hardly sporty. GM's OnStar driver-assistance service is also
    standard on the GS trim line."

    According to CR reader surveys, the recent Regals are competitive with
    the Camry for reliability, but 1996-1999 Camrys are more reliable than
    Regals of the same vintage. IMHO this suggests that the Regal won't
    age as well as the Camry.

    Camry beats Regal for owner satisfaction and depreciation,
    unfortunately for Regal.

    Suggest you go to library and read April and later issues of CR for
    more detailed info on strengths and weaknesses of the Regal, or else
    see the web site. (You may need an online subscription to see all
    Neil, Nov 12, 2003
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