Problems with 1998 Grand Voyager Check Engine Light - The saga continues

[C. E. White]

For six months I have been trying to help my SO fix her mini-van. The mini-van is a 1998 Plymouth Grand Voyager, 3.0L V-6, Automatic with around 128,000 miles. Several months back, her check engine light illuminated, however the car ran OK and the mileage seemed "normal."

Round One - Local Dodge dealer performed a "tune up." Mostly new new plugs. Light stayed out for a few days.

Round Two - Local Western Auto replaced plugs and wires. Light stayed out for a few days.

Round Three - Western Auto Again - replaced plugs again. Light was out for a few days.

Round Four - yours truly - Used ignition switch method to trigger code read out." Got code 43. Checked coil resistance compared to manual, decided it was not quite right, so I replaced it. Disconnected battery and the light stayed out for almost a week.

Round Five - Used code reader and got P0300 and P0305 codes (random misfire and misfire on #5 cylinder). Checked plugs, they looked fine. I decided that maybe the plug wire was not on correctly. Reset light. THe light stayed out for almost a week.

Round Six - Same codes as before. Replaced wires and #5 plug. Reset light. Stayed out for a couple of days.

Round Seven - Same codes as before plus P0306. Decided problem might be leaking intake manifold gaskets, so I replaced them. Reset the light and it stayed out for about three days.

Round Eight - P0300 and P0305 Codes again. In desperation I replaced Plug #5 with another brand NGK and replaced the O2 Sensor with a genuine Chrysler Part. Light stayed out for 3 days but the vehicle did not complete the OBDII Driving Cycle.

Round Nine - Dodge Dealer again. Same Codes. Dealer performs compression test and says the compression is fine. Performs a Leak Down Test and says based on this test, the engine is shot and should be replaced - for $4,000.

Round Ten - HELP!

$4,000 is a lot to but into this van. It is only worth around $4,500 in good condition. I am suspicious of the diagnosis that the van needs a new engine. It runs OK. Not perfect, but no oil usage, no smoke, idle is little rough, but runs smooth at speed. P0305 code usually shows up with a couple of days after resetting the computer. I have certainly driven vehicles that run worse. If I leave the code reader connected to the engine, I never see the mis-fire condition. The problem is almost always the same P0300 along with P0305. Once P0306 was also found, but this was a typical. Not fixing the problem is not an option since this is an OBDII Inspection area.

I am willing to try miracle cures......

Regards,

Ed White

 

[Robert Hancock]

You say you replaced the coil, but it might also be a problem with the ignition module itself (I'm assuming that's a separate component on this engine).

It's possible there might be some mechanical problem like a burnt valve or something that's causing a miss, but the dealer's engine replacement recommendation seems a tad extreme. Did they provide details of the leakdown test results?

 

[Mike Behnke]

Has anybody tried testing for a leaking intake manifold gasket?

You say you replaced the coil, but it might also be a problem with the ignition module itself (I'm assuming that's a separate component on this engine).

It's possible there might be some mechanical problem like a burnt valve or something that's causing a miss, but the dealer's engine replacement recommendation seems a tad extreme. Did they provide details of the leakdown test results?

 

[C. E. White]

Has anybody tried testing for a leaking intake manifold gasket?

I replaced those - no effect.

Thanks for the suggestion.

Regards,

Ed White

 

[C. E. White]

You say you replaced the coil, but it might also be a problem with the ignition module itself (I'm assuming that's a separate component on this engine).

It's possible there might be some mechanical problem like a burnt valve or something that's causing a miss, but the dealer's engine replacement recommendation seems a tad extreme. Did they provide details of the leakdown test results?

Unfortunately no. They just said based on the results of the test, they recommended an engine replacement. We don't really care if the van runs like new
- we just want to cure the miss so the Check Engine Light stays out. As far as I can tell, the van runs about as well as it ever did. The van does have a persistent click at idle when cold. This click has been with us for a long time. I assume it is a noisy lifter (if you can use that term for this engine). It usually clears up as soon as the engine warms up. It did this long before the check engine light became a problem. The miss is defintiely not continuous. I have riden for miles with the scan tool attached and never seen it show up.

Thanks for the suggestions.

Regards,

Ed White

 

[ronm]

My best advice (This coming from a guy who bought and still have a 78 Chysler Cordoba) Get rid of that problem Chysler product don't do as I did!!!!!!!!!!!
ronm

 

[MelvinGibson]

Let me see if I understand you correctly. You have been driving a vehicle for twenty five years and you call it a 'problem' vehicle? I thought I heard everything in these NG over the last 12 years but that takes the prize. LOL

mike hunt

ronm wrote:

My best advice (This coming from a guy who bought and still have a 78 Chysler Cordoba) Get rid of that problem Chysler product don't do as I did!!!!!!!!!!!
ronm

 

[mic canic]

it needs a valve job, compression spec is 175 psi and it better be dam close to that( with in5 psi) or it will set a misfire light. option 2 remove bulb from lite

 

[C. E. White]

Well the vehicle has needed almost no maintenance for 120,000 miles. Until the check engine light problem, it has only needed a belt tensioner replaced. Otherwise it has been a reliable if deadly boring vehicle.

Regards,

Ed White

 

[Tree]

Hello
I think you need to find another tech to work on your Van. All the technicians who worked on your Van did not do one important test. It is Fuel system delivery and control test (ie: Fuel pressure, fuel volume flow, injectors flow, injector balance, fuel quality). All of following problem will cause the PCM to set misfire code: Bad fuel pump (low volume, air bubble), restricted injector(s), dirty fuel (water contaminated or rusty fuel tank ...), high carbon deposit in combustion charmber (use borescope to check), poor #5 injector wiring, leaking at injector and a lot more. I would do injectors cleaning (prefer MOTOR VAC service) and Engine top cylinder cleaning first the recheck.

Tree

 

[fweddybear]

Well the vehicle has needed almost no maintenance for 120,000 miles. Until

the

check engine light problem, it has only needed a belt tensioner replaced. Otherwise it has been a reliable if deadly boring vehicle.

Regards,

Ed White

Ed..... I had an 88 caravan (not grand) and when i bought it (used) the check engine light was on, so the dealer said he would fix it. well when i picked up the van, it was off, but one thing about it bothered me... that was that the tach would, when the engine was shut off move up and stay up when you shut the door, or tap on the dash... etc.. well i didn't bvelieve that this was normal, so i decided to take apart the dash... well.. lo and behold the little light for the check engine light was missing..... when i brought it up to the sales person, he basically said that the techs dont just pull out the light bulbs to get rid of the problems... well you can guess that this was only the beginning.... i took it to my repair guy who ended up doing about 700 bucks in repair... muffler, rear wheel cylinder, and a few other things.. and so the dealer ended up paying for half in the end, but as far as the check engine light... i can't remember what the reason was that it was on.... and this is the only thread i have seen of yours, so I can't tell if you have had any testing done, but I know that there is a button located in the dash, I think its in between the tach and the speedo that needs to be pushed in to get rid of the check engine light coming on. My repair guy said it automatically comes on after a certain amount of mileage and if I remember correctly, it had something to do with the egr or the emissions...

Hope this helps you..

Fwed

 

[saeengineer]

Ed..... I had an 88 caravan (not grand) and when i bought it (used) the check engine light was on, so the dealer said he would fix it. well when i picked up the van, it was off, but one thing about it bothered me... that was that the tach would, when the engine was shut off move up and stay up when you shut the door, or tap on the dash... etc.. well i didn't bvelieve that this was normal, so i decided to take apart the dash... well.. lo and behold the little light for the check engine light was missing..... wheni brought it up to the sales person, he basically said that the techs dont just pull out the light bulbs to get rid of the problems... well you can guess that this was only the beginning.... i took it to my repair guy who ended up doing about 700 bucks in repair... muffler, rear wheel cylinder, and a few other things.. and so the dealer ended up paying for half in the end, but as far as the check engine light... i can't remember what the reason was that it was on.... and this is the only thread i have seen of yours, so I can't tell if you have had any testing done, but I know that there is a button located in the dash, I think its in between the tach and the speedo that needs to be pushed in to get rid of the check engine light coming on. My repair guy said it automatically comes on after a certain amount of mileage and if I remember correctly, it had something to do with the egr or the emissions...

Hope this helps you..

Fwed

That is not the Check Engine light.

 

[Chip Stein]

have them do a cylinder balance test, or at least tell you what the leakdown test showed. you need a competent tech to tackle this one. a misfire code can be set for spark fuel or compression problems, it may be a bad crank sensor that's sending garbled info to the ecm. there's a couple of makers that had that problem. honda had bad ecu's in their civics around 98 that set misfire codes for no reason. have someone look up the service bulletins and see if any odf them cover these types of problems.
Chip

 

[TBone]

If you have the diagnostic tool, why don't you just flush the codes before going to inspection?

 

[Tree]

If you have the diagnostic tool, why don't you just flush the codes before going to inspection?

I don't know where you are but in California Clearing the trouble code to turn off the check engine light before going to smog inspection will most likely fail the inspection test (OBD II monitor test)

 

[C. E. White]

If you have the diagnostic tool, why don't you just flush the codes before going to inspection?

Becasue the OBDII Inspection program is not that naive. The PCM requires that a driving cycle be completed before the vehicle is ready for inspection. So far we have not been able to "flush" the codes and have them stayed flush before all the readiness monitors have completed their cycles. I think it is the EGR cycle that takes the longest, and the PCM always sets the misfire code before that cycle is completed. My scan tool is clever enough to monitor the cycles, but not so clever that it can fake them out.

Regards,

Ed White

 

[Neil Nelson]

Becasue the OBDII Inspection program is not that naive. The PCM requires that a driving cycle be completed before the vehicle is ready for inspection. So far we have not been able to "flush" the codes and have them stayed flush before all the readiness monitors have completed their cycles. I think it is the EGR cycle that takes the longest, and the PCM always sets the misfire code before that cycle is completed. My scan tool is clever enough to monitor the cycles, but not so clever that it can fake them out.

Regards,

Ed White

I think the OBD2 3.0 liter Mitsubishis are susceptible to carbon caked intake valves causing missfire codes. It might be worthwhile to have the intake removed and the valves and runners Walnut shell blasted like (IIRC) was necessary on some of the European imports (BMW?) a few years ago.

 

[C. E. White]

I think the OBD2 3.0 liter Mitsubishis are susceptible to carbon caked intake valves causing missfire codes. It might be worthwhile to have the intake removed and the valves and runners Walnut shell blasted like (IIRC) was necessary on some of the European imports (BMW?) a few years ago.

Thanks for the response. I have heard that this was a problem from others. Is there any possibility that some additive might "fix" this problem without removing the intake manifold <again>. I am surprised that the dealer did not mention this option. I guess they thought we needed a new engine <sigh>.

Regards,

Ed White

 

[Neil Nelson]

"C. E. White" wrote:

Thanks for the response. I have heard that this was a problem from others. Is there any possibility that some additive might "fix" this problem without removing the intake manifold <again>.

I kind of doubt that an additive will work. Anything strong enough to remove the carbon is likely to place havoc on the fuel system parts.
Worth a try though...

 

[David Little]

You can clean the combustion chamber by injecting transmission fluid into the PCV valve; metered just enough to keep it from stalling at fast idle. Plan on putting in fresh plugs after the treatment. I don't know if it will solve your problem. Also, go back to stock plugs if any of the newer "miracle" plugs have been used. Hotter heat ranges may cause detonation. Try going to a lower heat range plug if you suspect the misfire is caused by pre-detonation due to too hot of a plug for the current state of air to fuel ratio.