Problems with 1998 Grand Voyager Check Engine Light - The saga continues

Discussion in 'Voyager' started by C. E. White, Jul 11, 2003.

  1. C. E. White

    C. E. White Guest

    For six months I have been trying to help my SO fix her mini-van. The
    mini-van is a 1998 Plymouth Grand Voyager, 3.0L V-6, Automatic with
    around 128,000 miles. Several months back, her check engine light
    illuminated, however the car ran OK and the mileage seemed "normal."

    Round One - Local Dodge dealer performed a "tune up." Mostly new new
    plugs. Light stayed out for a few days.

    Round Two - Local Western Auto replaced plugs and wires. Light stayed
    out for a few days.

    Round Three - Western Auto Again - replaced plugs again. Light was out
    for a few days.

    Round Four - yours truly - Used ignition switch method to trigger code
    read out." Got code 43. Checked coil resistance compared to manual,
    decided it was not quite right, so I replaced it. Disconnected battery
    and the light stayed out for almost a week.

    Round Five - Used code reader and got P0300 and P0305 codes (random
    misfire and misfire on #5 cylinder). Checked plugs, they looked fine. I
    decided that maybe the plug wire was not on correctly. Reset light. THe
    light stayed out for almost a week.

    Round Six - Same codes as before. Replaced wires and #5 plug. Reset
    light. Stayed out for a couple of days.

    Round Seven - Same codes as before plus P0306. Decided problem might be
    leaking intake manifold gaskets, so I replaced them. Reset the light and
    it stayed out for about three days.

    Round Eight - P0300 and P0305 Codes again. In desperation I replaced
    Plug #5 with another brand NGK and replaced the O2 Sensor with a genuine
    Chrysler Part. Light stayed out for 3 days but the vehicle did not
    complete the OBDII Driving Cycle.

    Round Nine - Dodge Dealer again. Same Codes. Dealer performs compression
    test and says the compression is fine. Performs a Leak Down Test and
    says based on this test, the engine is shot and should be replaced - for

    Round Ten - HELP!

    $4,000 is a lot to but into this van. It is only worth around $4,500 in
    good condition. I am suspicious of the diagnosis that the van needs a
    new engine. It runs OK. Not perfect, but no oil usage, no smoke, idle is
    little rough, but runs smooth at speed. P0305 code usually shows up with
    a couple of days after resetting the computer. I have certainly driven
    vehicles that run worse. If I leave the code reader connected to the
    engine, I never see the mis-fire condition. The problem is almost always
    the same P0300 along with P0305. Once P0306 was also found, but this was
    a typical. Not fixing the problem is not an option since this is an
    OBDII Inspection area.

    I am willing to try miracle cures......


    Ed White
    C. E. White, Jul 11, 2003
  2. You say you replaced the coil, but it might also be a problem with the
    ignition module itself (I'm assuming that's a separate component on this

    It's possible there might be some mechanical problem like a burnt valve or
    something that's causing a miss, but the dealer's engine replacement
    recommendation seems a tad extreme. Did they provide details of the leakdown
    test results?
    Robert Hancock, Jul 11, 2003
  3. C. E. White

    Mike Behnke Guest

    Has anybody tried testing for a leaking intake manifold gasket?

    Mike Behnke, Jul 11, 2003
  4. C. E. White

    C. E. White Guest

    I replaced those - no effect.

    Thanks for the suggestion.


    Ed White
    C. E. White, Jul 11, 2003
  5. C. E. White

    C. E. White Guest

    Unfortunately no. They just said based on the results of the test, they
    recommended an engine replacement. We don't really care if the van runs like new
    - we just want to cure the miss so the Check Engine Light stays out. As far as I
    can tell, the van runs about as well as it ever did. The van does have a
    persistent click at idle when cold. This click has been with us for a long time.
    I assume it is a noisy lifter (if you can use that term for this engine). It
    usually clears up as soon as the engine warms up. It did this long before the
    check engine light became a problem. The miss is defintiely not continuous. I
    have riden for miles with the scan tool attached and never seen it show up.

    Thanks for the suggestions.


    Ed White
    C. E. White, Jul 11, 2003
  6. C. E. White

    ronm Guest

    My best advice (This coming from a guy who bought and still have a 78
    Chysler Cordoba) Get rid of that problem Chysler product don't do as I
    ronm, Jul 11, 2003
  7. C. E. White

    mic canic Guest

    it needs a valve job, compression spec is 175 psi and it better be dam close
    to that( with in5 psi) or it will set a misfire light. option 2 remove bulb
    from lite
    mic canic, Jul 11, 2003
  8. C. E. White

    C. E. White Guest

    Well the vehicle has needed almost no maintenance for 120,000 miles. Until the
    check engine light problem, it has only needed a belt tensioner replaced.
    Otherwise it has been a reliable if deadly boring vehicle.


    Ed White
    C. E. White, Jul 12, 2003
  9. C. E. White

    Tree Guest

    I think you need to find another tech to work on your Van. All the
    technicians who worked on your Van did not do one important test. It
    is Fuel system delivery and control test (ie: Fuel pressure, fuel
    volume flow, injectors flow, injector balance, fuel quality). All of
    following problem will cause the PCM to set misfire code: Bad fuel
    pump (low volume, air bubble), restricted injector(s), dirty fuel
    (water contaminated or rusty fuel tank ...), high carbon deposit in
    combustion charmber (use borescope to check), poor #5 injector wiring,
    leaking at injector and a lot more.
    I would do injectors cleaning (prefer MOTOR VAC service) and Engine
    top cylinder cleaning first the recheck.

    Tree, Jul 12, 2003
  10. C. E. White

    saeengineer Guest

    That is not the Check Engine light.
    saeengineer, Jul 12, 2003
  11. C. E. White

    Tbone Guest

    If you have the diagnostic tool, why don't you just flush the codes before
    going to inspection?
    Tbone, Jul 14, 2003
  12. C. E. White

    Tree Guest

    I don't know where you are but in California Clearing the trouble code
    to turn off the check engine light before going to smog inspection
    will most likely fail the inspection test (OBD II monitor test)
    Tree, Jul 15, 2003
  13. C. E. White

    C. E. White Guest

    Becasue the OBDII Inspection program is not that naive. The PCM requires that
    a driving cycle be completed before the vehicle is ready for inspection. So
    far we have not been able to "flush" the codes and have them stayed flush
    before all the readiness monitors have completed their cycles. I think it is
    the EGR cycle that takes the longest, and the PCM always sets the misfire code
    before that cycle is completed. My scan tool is clever enough to monitor the
    cycles, but not so clever that it can fake them out.


    Ed White
    C. E. White, Jul 15, 2003
  14. C. E. White

    Neil Nelson Guest

    I think the OBD2 3.0 liter Mitsubishis are susceptible to
    carbon caked intake valves causing missfire codes.
    It might be worthwhile to have the intake removed and the
    valves and runners Walnut shell blasted like (IIRC) was
    necessary on some of the European imports (BMW?) a few years
    Neil Nelson, Jul 15, 2003
  15. C. E. White

    C. E. White Guest

    Thanks for the response. I have heard that this was a problem from others. Is there
    any possibility that some additive might "fix" this problem without removing the
    intake manifold <again>. I am surprised that the dealer did not mention this option.
    I guess they thought we needed a new engine <sigh>.


    Ed White
    C. E. White, Jul 15, 2003
  16. C. E. White

    David Little Guest

    You can clean the combustion chamber by injecting transmission fluid into
    the PCV valve; metered just enough to keep it from stalling at fast idle.
    Plan on putting in fresh plugs after the treatment. I don't know if it will
    solve your problem. Also, go back to stock plugs if any of the newer
    "miracle" plugs have been used. Hotter heat ranges may cause detonation.
    Try going to a lower heat range plug if you suspect the misfire is caused by
    pre-detonation due to too hot of a plug for the current state of air to fuel
    David Little, Jul 16, 2003
  17. C. E. White

    cloaked Guest

    And this little trick is not going to adversely affect the Oxygen
    Sensor or the Catalytic Converter???
    cloaked, Jul 17, 2003
  18. C. E. White

    SPS 700 Guest

    Back in the days of carbs, we used to pour water down the carb to get rid of
    carbon build up. especially when we were going to rebuild the engine. Also
    put a couple quarts of ATF in the crankcase and ran it about 100 miles.
    Wouldn't believe how clean the engine was when we tore it down after this.
    SPS 700, Jul 18, 2003
  19. C. E. White

    David Lesher Guest

    Water injection? The only engines I've seen there were CLEAN inside
    had head gasket leaks and.....
    David Lesher, Jul 28, 2003
  20. C. E. White

    clare Guest

    They are succeptible to a whole lot more than that. Dropped valve
    guides were common in the earlier years, and valve guide wear is still
    a problem. At about 90,000km the heads on my New Yorker were replaced
    under warranty due to a couple dropped guides. At about 190,000 I had
    to replace the heads again due to worn guides causing oil consumption
    and killing the cat. New heads and cat passed emissions just fine -
    and again this year at 240,000km.
    Darn MitsuShitty engines!!!
    clare , Sep 23, 2003
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