Priceless!

My customers expect me to look after their best interests, adding
a half hour and two $2 O-rings to the bill is hardly "ripping
someone off." Not doing so on the other hand, is common garden
variety incompetence.

At 30K, wouldn't it still be under warranty Glenn, and doesn't
this imply that they [the customer] have absolutely no trust in
the dealerships methods?

I'd much rather explain the difference in price than explain why
the vehicle has the same failure after a short period of time,
and since I have yet to see one where the O-rings in question
aren't shriveled and cracked, a little show and tell with the
customer makes it all clear to them (unlike you).

 

AARCuda: Thanks for this post. Every now and then it's nice to see
reminders like this of why maxpower is in my killfile.

 

Okay, thanks for the info. I just got through doing both of mine, and I did
not take the cam bolts/pulleys/cover off. So I'm hoping for the best!

 

No at 30k most 2001 vehicles are not even under warranty, Let me explain it
to Mutt and Jeff.
watch this carefully now it may get tricky for Daniel and yourself.. Here
goes......3/36 whichever comes first.......Did you understand it? let me do
it one more time, I dont think Daniel understood.
3/36
If you still dont get it, give me a call and I will explain it again.

Unnecessary repairs at low mileage and it is a cost of more then .5 to your
customers

 

No at 30k most 2001 vehicles are not even under warranty, Let me explain it
to Mutt and Jeff.[/QUOTE]

So, what you're saying is that at 30K miles and (barely) 4 years
old, your dealerships service department wouldn't go to bat for
your customer. Is this supposed to gain points for yourself

3/36 might be the maximum extent of your advanced intellect, but
this is not a good place to demonstrate it. i.e., as I've said
before, you're a simple minded twit and you only know about that
which exists in your insulated little world of warranty work and
things that fail in 3 years and 36,000 miles. i.e., you've
managed quite nicely to rise to your level of incompetence, which
is exactly where you'll stay for the rest of your life.

Really? How would you know what I charge to remove a few more
bolts?
You're really projecting here Glenn ol' boy, not to mention
demonstrating your total lack of knowledge of the engine in
question and the way that the cooling system is KNOWN to fail.

This is all a red herring on your part. Bottom line, your buddy
TNKEV blew smoke up that customers ass by claiming that there was
no need to remove the cam sprockets on that 3.5 to do the repair
when in fact, it -was- necessary and apparently the NAPA Car Care
center he went to first DID know more about how to do the job
then either YOU or TNKEV.

 

So, what you're saying is that at 30K miles and (barely) 4 years
old, your dealerships service department wouldn't go to bat for
your customer. Is this supposed to gain points for yourself
and/or 5 star service? <rolls eyes>[/QUOTE]

Lets not change the subject, You said you replace the o rings everytime you
do a timing belt.and that they are still under warranty at 30K.. My answer
to your low life was WRONG!!

Hey Have a great day!!

 

Lets not change the subject,[/QUOTE]

Okay, let's not.

Yes, I did say that.

The premise of it being at 30K came from YOU Bozo.
<what a fucking moron>
Still, at 30K, it speaks volumes if your service department won't
go to bat for the customer and do it under warranty.

I will. I'm not the one who hi-jacked a job from another shop
under false pretenses, nor am I the one defending his
unprofessional behavior.

 

Okay, let's not.

Yes, I did say that.

The premise of it being at 30K came from YOU Bozo.
<what a fucking moron>
Still, at 30K, it speaks volumes if your service department won't
go to bat for the customer and do it under warranty.

I will. I'm not the one who hi-jacked a job from another shop
under false pretenses, nor am I the one defending his
unprofessional behavior.[/QUOTE]


No, but let's be fair - the original shop WAS ripping the guy off with
the quoted price, any way you slice it - AND was afraid they would
break bolts doing the job.

Doesn't sound like the original shop was a great prize either.

So how about we cut out the little boy squabling and agree that
sometimes trying to save the customer a few bucks gets expensive in
the long run.

Now, if these engines are blowing "O" rings and corroding parts, I'm
VERY suspicious that the pH of the coolant is out of whack - and
someone should have sold the customer a coolant change or service
(clean the coolant and adjust pH) some time ago. Usually extends the
life of water pumps too.

Antifreeze MUST be checked anually, and usually requires attention
every 2 years. From the factory the pH is often borderline.

 

Okay, let's not.

Yes, I did say that.

The premise of it being at 30K came from YOU Bozo.
<what a fucking moron>
Still, at 30K, it speaks volumes if your service department won't
go to bat for the customer and do it under warranty.

I will. I'm not the one who hi-jacked a job from another shop
under false pretenses, nor am I the one defending his
unprofessional behavior.[/QUOTE]

Still afraid of the dealers I see

 

Whoah there buddy!

Remember, the CUSTOMER was the one who pulled his vehicle from
"barry" and towed it to TNKEV. The customer owns this vehicle, not
tnkev, and the customer has the responsibility to at least understand
something of what is being done to repair his vehicle.

Quite obviously the customer was uncomfortable in some way with
"barry", and didn't trust him - which is why the customer called tnkev
I would assume. And I should point out that while I personally have
never worked on the engine in question, if barry was a half-decent
mechanic he could have showed me in 30 seconds with a parts explosion
exactly why he needed to remove the cam bolt - and I would assume
that it is quite obvious. Or better yet pointed out to me under the lift
why it needed to come out. Why then didn't this happen with this customer?

Assuming tnkev's relating of the phone call was accurate, barry was really
stupid to cop the attitude of "I know better than you so shut the **** up"
and I would assume he copped the same attitude with the customer - otherwise
why would the customer have called tnkev?

While it is also evident that tnkev didn't know anything about this job
either, and thus was shitting the customer, the real point of this story is
that it isn't tnkev's job to make the customer have a good feeling that
the repair by barry is being done correctly. It's barry's job to make the
customer have a good feeling that the repair by barry is being done
correctly.
That didn't happen here which created the opportunity for tnkev to wedge
himself in and claim the business.

Ted

 

I never mentioned any pooch screwing, nor did i say we blatently missed a
coolant leak,
did i say this vehicle is the customers only vehicle?

you are very confused,sorry,neither the customer(didn't know or didn't
understand)
nor the mechanic(got pissed and defended his knowledge)told me about any
leaks until the vehicle was here.

the tone set was the tone given.
never second guess yourself,you dont know,everything has a beginning and an
end.
the good lord is the only one who knows when that coolant leak started.
and lube techs never miss anything.(sarcasm)
and no special deal was made,he paid his own towing.

..
my behavior was extremely proffessional in the manner that I handled the
other mechanic and in speaking
to my customer.

again it is known only by the good Lord when that leak started.
you do know the old saying about assuming somthing?

unproffesional again,were you on the phone?

abhor yourself,you created the incompetence and unproffessionalism in your
own mind by assumption.

 

when did I belittle anyone?

with the info given(water pump is being changed)the advice given was not
from a lack of experience.
techs at my shop said "hell we can replace the o'rings too for less than
that",I had planned on showing a value by telling the customer "we also
replaced your water pump o'rings"

 

I agree with both points made. This thread has gone on long enough and
there is no new information here so should die.

I can't speak for the majority and can only share my own personal experience
with a 1996 3.5L Vision. It had a leaking water pump at 25K miles and just
over the 36 months. It was the result of a defective design from the
factory. I understand there were a lot that failed in that same timeframe.
I replaced it at that time with an upgraded Chrysler dealer part, but did
not do the rear O-rings at that time. It began leaking from those O-rings
within another 25K miles and less than 3 years so I had to re-do the job.
It was at that time that I noticed the corrosion on the aluminum cover so
used the RTV liberally.

As to the PH and maintenance of the coolant, I changed the original (regular
old green stuff) antifreeze out at 2 years and subsequently every two years
thereafter religiously and used Prestone and distilled water. The corrosion
and pitting was there and I would imagine that others who have had this
dismantled have seen the exact same thing. The new O-Rings coupled with the
RTV have held up well now for about 3 years.

Bob

 

let me just say this: the job is done,the car doesn't leak,my customer loves
me,everybody is happy!
can we all agree,a properly repaired vehicle and a happy customer is the
goal. mission accomplished!

 

From your second post:
How else should this scenario have been interpreted?
Nice try, but I ain't buying it...
As for screwing the pooch, I never said that you mentioned it. I
-said- it and felt justified in making that assumption because
you had made the assumption that Barry was performing this repair
in an improper manner, which we now know, he wasn't.

Hey, the information was supplied by you. If it was incomplete,
that's your fault.

No shit!

He doesn't have to justify himself to you.
Given the confusion, you could have asked him if there were other
coolant leaks that he was dealing with. Being the 'expert', you
should have known about the O-rings and considered them to be a
possibility.

The tone set was that you could see more than the mechanic who
had the vehicle in his possession. IOWs, you were second guessing.

You should follow that advice.

Yup, and the good lord is the only one who knows why Barry was
removing the cam sprocket. Well, we all do now, but that is
after the fact.

Oh, so he was in for lube service with this vehicle, contrary to
what you allude in your first paragraph.

Since it ultimately became unnecessary to have the car towed, you
should have picked up the tow for him since you yourself admit
that Barry was on the right track on this repair and that the cam
sprocket -did- need to come off.

Yes, I'm sure you feel that way, how else would someone defend
their actions after having hi-jacked a job from another shop
under false pretenses?

You felt quite justified in telling that customer that Barry was
performing the repair wrong. Isn't that an assumption on your
part?
As for when the coolant leak started, I can say that with over 12
years of experience with this engine and having done dozens and
dozens of timing belt/water pump jobs on them, that they DO tend
to weep and give advance warning long before there is a
catastrophic pump failure, just like the 3.3s and it's not at all
difficult to estimate for the customer how long they have before
it becomes a concern that needs to be repaired.

Are you that fucking stupid? Did you bother to check to see who
[this] post was in response to? The above paragraph that you're
responding to was directed towards maxpower, it has to do with
his responses to a thread here a number of weeks ago where he
sent someone with a no start LH car on a wild goose chase
replacing cam and crank sensors against all logic when in fact it
turned out to be a jumped timing belt, and YES, the original
poster had given EXCELLENT clues that should have been obvious to
ol' maxpower.

This is so laughable. YOU originated the post, a post which was
based in whole upon an assumption that YOU made.

 

when did I belittle anyone?[/QUOTE]

The original post that you made in this thread.
In the customers eyes, you defamed Barry's shop, not because of
the price he was changing versus what you were willing to whore
it out for, but because you planted in that customers mind that
they were incompetent by claiming that it wasn't necessary to
remove the cam sprockets in order to remove the timing belt cover.

So; what you're saying is that your shop doesn't change the block
to timing cover O-rings as part of a water pump job.
Please give the name and location of your shop so if anyone in
your area asks, we can advise them to avoid doing business there.
Also; considering that there are front -and- rear timing covers
on this engine, you -do- show lack of experience by not
considering that it may have been the rear cover that was being
removed. Again, post name and location so such inexperience can
be avoided by others seeking competent repair/advice on their
Dodge/chrysler automobiles.

So maybe you should station people at ALL the shops in the area
and hi-jack as many jobs as you can.

You know, just because the price was higher doesn't mean he was
getting taken, hell, given the lack of information -you- claim
from the customer, you really don't know all that was on the
ticket for the price he was quoted, now do you?

 

Still afraid of the dealers I see[/QUOTE]

You know the old saying...

.... you can wish in one hand, and shit in the other.

 

None of us have any idea what all was on that ticket for the
price quoted, and I see nothing wrong with Barry keeping the
customer informed about any odd circumstances he might encounter.

The O-rings have been re-designed and have a super-ceding part
number, and whether or not the coolant pH is a factor, Chrysler
has been known to use O-rings that begin to resemble dried earth
worms caught in the sun to seal between the timing covers and
blocks on the 3.3, the 3.8 the 3.5.
Same results as the now famous GM intake gaskets, just in a
different place on the engine.

Agreed. Doesn't change the fact that TNKEV went off half cocked.

 

Based upon questionable advice from TNKEV.

That's right, and he had already agreed to the repairs at Barry's
shop, and we don't know what all was included on that repair
order.

Probably prompted by Barry being up front with the customer about
the possibility of the cam bolt breaking, a warning which I can
only imagine comes from Barry having experience in doing the job
before.

I can't imagine that the customer was there in the shop waiting
for a timing belt/water pump job.

Happens all the time in the business. I sell a job for $XX
dollars, the customer talks to the guy in the next cubicle or
calls AutoZone and calls back with the "hey, so and so has those
parts cheaper, how come yours cost $XX?"
Then I have to spend extra uncompensated time explaining why I
only use premium parts from vendor XYZ instead of the cheap
Chinese crap sold by vendor QRS.
It's a form of buyers remorse fueled by second guessing and
everyone is a mechanic and knows how to fix cars and run a shop.

At which point TNKEV should have explained to the customer that
unfortunately he isn't there to see -exactly- what is going on
and that he can't advise based upon second hand information and
not being able to see the problem first hand.

It's Barry's job to inform the customer of any errata which is
exactly what he did. I don't think anyone would rather find that
the repair cost went higher after it's all said and done and it's
time to pay the bill.
Why at that point the customer got queasy is anyone guess, but
it's not all that rare.

An opportunity that a professional would have recused himself
from.

 

I'll say this...

I'm not Barry, I don't know Barry, but should this situation ever
arise again, I hope for the sake of this industry that you handle
it differently.