Priceless!

I got a phone call yesterday from a customer that gets an oil change here
once ina while and he asked me "do you have to remove the cam bolts to
change the timing belt in my 3.5 liter engine"and I said "no"he tells me
that is vehicle is a a shop near his home wich is about 50 miles from here
and the mechanic working on his car tiold him they may break one of the cam
bolts in the process of changing the timing belt.
so he asked me to call the mechanic and tell him not to remove the bolts
,well being the curious person I am I called.
ring ring:napa aouto care
me;can I speak to barry (name change)
barry;how can I help you?
me;hey barry I have a friend who's vehicle you are working on he tells me
you are changing his water pump and timing belt and that you may braek a
bolt?
barry; yes one of the cam bolts is stuck
me; why are you removing the cam bolts?
barry;look here pal if you think you can take the front cover off this
thing without removing those bolts you bring your ass down here and do
it,you can even use my tools and my lift to do it.
me;well I called a chrysler dealer and they told me you are going to
florida via new mexico you don't need to remove the bolts to get the cover
off.
barry;(very angry) look MFer you bring your ass down here and I will show
you you are an idiot.
thats when I started saying yes sir I apologize and I didn't mean to
upset you I am just looking out for a friend and I hung up on him, I called
my customer and told him to have his vehicle towed to me and I will take
care of your vehicle, he says "yeah but you guys are more expensive I can't
afford to do that" and I say "how much are they charging you" $870.00 he
says,I almost fell of my stool,Itold him we can do it for half that,he is
here today with parts in a box.

 

<snip>

Maybe Barry was being prudent and was also changing the two
O-rings between the back half of the front cover and the engine
block.

I do, every time I replace a water pump and timing belt on a 3.5.

 

Maybe Barry was being prudent and was also changing the two O-rings
between the back half of the front cover and the engine block.I do, every time I replace a water pump and timing belt on a 3.5.

And do you charge $870.00?

Richard.

 

I agree that one cam bolt (the passenger side if I recall correctly) needs
to come out to get the cover off and get access to the O-Ring.

From personal experience, take the extra 30 minutes and remove the
bolt/cover then replace the 3 rear O-rings. Remember to properly clean up
the aluminum cover plate and the cast iron block channels that the ring
slips into since they will undoubtedly be badly pitted/corroded from the use
of dissimilar metals in the design. I also use a small amount of RTV sealant
on the O-Rings to assure a good seal and fill in the pitted area after a
thorough wire brushing.

As to the need to remove the cam bolt to replace the timing belt or the
water pump, this is not necessary unless you are changing the rear O-Rings.
Maybe the shop was confused and was talking about the crankshaft balancer
bolt? (Which also need not be removed since you can coerce the belt around
it if you try. But, makes more sense given this situation.)

If you are doing the timing belt, do replace the water pump and all the
O-Rings too. In the end it will save you time and money to do it all the
first time.

 

Nope.

 

Agreed 100%. Sounds like you do the job exactly as I do them and
probably for the same reasons.

Remember, we're getting this story third hand, and I'm certain
it's somewhat colored by the fact that TNKEV failed in educating
his customer and the subsequent loss of repeat business on an
easy and profitable job. i.e., TNKEVs oil change special customer
left his establishment with some bad impressions for -some-
reason.

 

My customer lives about 50 miles from here and works about 1 mile from here,
he does come in for regular oil changes.
what he failed to tell me is that he was leaking coolant,the o'rings are
being replaced as we speak and saving my customer a little over $200.00
including his tow bill.
he has also promised to never take it to an outside garage again, and I
did tell him they were attempting to repair his vehicle correctly they were
just ripping him off.
people always think the dealer is more expensive but that is not true in
every case.

 

OMG dont mention dealer to aarcuda!!!

 

It's a shame that your original post failed to convey that
message...

Quite true. Had that customer put a little effort into checking
around, he probably could have saved himself some grief.

The part that confuses me is; if this customer puts on 100 miles
a day commuting to work, and your shop is the one that does the
oil service, how did the coolant leak get past your mechanic on
the last oil change? (given that in 12 years experience with the
3.5, they don't generally just start gushing coolant from the
pump/o-rings)

 

I don't have a problem with dealers, just prima-donnas.

 

I must say again, you are such an ass!!! how does a lite bulb work today and
not tomorrow. Will you ever get a life...The sad thing is, you say " The
part that confuse me" if that part confuses you, I would hate to see you
work on anyone's vehicle.

Maybe that was the day it started??? Get a life cuda

 

Don't those cams have to be timed when you take that pully off? Am I missing
something? I thought they were not keyed. It said something about that in
the shop manual, so I dared not touch them.

 

Coming from the village idiot makes -that- meaningless.

I didn't see any mention of a light bulb, and neither did you.

Mr. Pot, meet Mr. Kettle.

The part that confuses me is why TNKEV would so blatantly admit
that his shop had screwed the pooch by missing the coolant leak
and then post that another shop was the 'bad guy'.
The part that confuses me is; that as a [supposed] trained
professional he vehemently denied that it might be -possible-
that it -would- be necessary to remove a cam sprocket to access
the leaking O-rings for repair (which -is- as it turned out
according to him).
Didn't occur to TNKEV that he was shooting himself in the foot,
didn't occur to you either.

Welp, since TNKEV set the tone that it is okay to second guess,
I'll second guess that that coolant leak was there for quite a
while and his guys totally missed it, and as a way of
compensating Mr. Oil change special, he offered the repair at a
discount, towing included.

So, here's what we know so far;
TNKEV got this customer all worked up over nothing.
He hi-jacked a job out of another shop under false pretenses.
His behavior with this customer and the other shop was
unprofessional.
He only managed to secure the job based upon price, not skill.
(he had his chance to sell the work previously)
You shouldn't be commenting on things related to timing belts on
LH cars given your demonstration a number of weeks ago that you
don't know jack fucking shit about them.
You eagerly jump to defend another dealership employee even
though this other dealership employee conducted himself in a very
unprofessional and suspicious manner.

And lastly;
I abhor incompetence and unprofessionalism in this industry and I
really don't give a fat rats ass who's ox I gore making that a
known fact.

 

Correct.

 

i pressue test the cooling system before i close up the timing covers if they
are going to leak they do. and if they don't, i just qc'ed my work and saved
the customer some cash

 

there is a special tool the holds the cam at center so you can center the gear
onto the shaft and tighten it down and i hook a vac . gauge up when it's running
to make sure i have 18 inches vac. or better then i know it's correct

 

The sprocket was keyed when I had mine off on my 1996 3.5L. Note that I did
not need to remove the cam itself to take off the sprocket and that there
were alignment marks for both of the cam sprockets and the crankshaft to
make sure the timing belt is installed correctly when you are done.

Bob

 

If the information was not known (the leak) at the time of the original
post, how could one possibly convey that information at that time. The part
that they were 'ripping him off' was quite clear to me in the OP.

Hmmm, I do not remember any mention of "gushing coolant from the
pump/o-rings", only that it was leaking.
Leaks do not develop over time, they worsen over time. The actual leak (and
any signs of it) may have quite easily occurred between/since oil changes,
so nothing confusing here.

 

Any mechanic with any amount of experience knows that the block
to timing cover O-rings are a weak point and will automatically
include them any time they do a timing belt on a 3.5 or 3.2.
It's called "a complete repair."

That they were ripping them off was -not- quite clear, what was
quite clear is/was TNKEVs lack of experience and eagerness to
belittle another repair shop.

 

So if a vehicle comes in your shop with a faulty water pump at say 30k and
the timing belt is saturated with coolant, you would dissassemble and
replace the o_rings? HMM talk about ripping someone off