PEAK extended life coolant now available for Chrysler

Discussion in 'General Motoring' started by Greg Houston, Feb 29, 2004.

  1. Greg Houston

    Greg Houston Guest

    A year ago, I posted <http://tinyurl.com/37qr3> that Zerex
    had begun selling their G-05 antifreeze, which was
    equivalent to the new Chrysler extended life 5 year/ 100,000
    mile OAT fluid. (Chrysler Spec #MS9769) The only
    difference between the Mopar fluid and the Zerex G-05 is
    that the Mopar fluid is dyed orange/red and Zerex G-05 is
    dyed gold. (Antifreeze colors cannot be compared between
    manufacturers.) Apparently Zerex was the OEM for the Mopar
    fluid. The G-05 was developed by Ford as well as Chrysler,
    so it meets both specs. GM came up with the Dex Cool which
    is NOT compatible with the Chrysler extended life fluid.
    (Apparently Dex Cool may have caused problems for GM
    vehicles too).

    PEAK antifreeze is now selling an Extended Life 100,000
    Mile/5 Year Antifreeze & Coolant that meets the Chrysler
    MS9769 standard. They call this PEAK® Extended Life
    CF-EXL. Their website also includes the material safety
    data sheet [MSDS]
    See http://www.peakantifreeze.com/peak_cfexl.html

    They also claim another new product, PEAK® Global Extended
    Life is compatible with the new Chrysler and Ford Fluids
    too, plus numerous others.
    See http://www.peakantifreeze.com/peak_global.html

    "PEAK GLOBAL Extended Life Antifreeze & Coolant is based on
    patented organic acid technology (OAT) and uses patented
    advanced engine protecting inhibitors to provide maximum
    protection against damaging rust and corrosion in all
    automotive cooling systems. "

    Peak is manufactured by Old World Industries. Does anyone
    have more information on this? Are they licensing the OAT
    coolant patents from BASF and/or Zerex?
     
    Greg Houston, Feb 29, 2004
    #1


  2. THANKS for the information.
     
    Richard Benner Jr, Feb 29, 2004
    #2
  3. On Sun, 29 Feb 2004, Greg Houston wrote:

    When I see this, the hair on the back of my neck stands up. OAT is also
    what's used in Dex-Cool and in Prestone's red long-life stuff, and my
    experience has been awful (leaks, corrosion, gasket attack) using OAT
    coolants in '60s through '90s systems designed for conventional silicate
    chemistry.

    From what I understand about G-05, it's worth consideration. I will *not*
    try OAT coolant again in a system not specifically designed for it -- I
    bought too many radiators and solder jobs and head gaskets and heater
    cores while doing so before.

    DS
     
    Daniel J. Stern, Feb 29, 2004
    #3
  4. Greg Houston

    Jimmy Guest

    Even systems "designed for it" have had problems. Do a web search or
    two. "Contamination" is the problem,and it comes form sources like
    factory sealers, solder, air, etc.
     
    Jimmy, Feb 29, 2004
    #4
  5. Greg Houston

    y_p_w Guest

    Well - Prestone's "extended life" coolant is orange, and they recently
    got the second Dex-Cool license. I believe ACDelco coolant is likely
    just repackaged Havoline extended life.
    The fact is that the majority of new cars come with silicate-free
    coolant using some sort of OAT. Not all are so-called "extended
    life" - Subaru would be an example. I'm not sure how compatible
    these are - Prestone claimed they've "lab tested" theirs for
    compatibility with various extended-life coolants. However -
    they seem to have removed this from their website in the past
    few days.

    However - to be on the safe side, I've have a bottle of Prestone
    extended-life (I used Dex-Cool in my Integra) as well as Toyota
    Long Life Red. I'm going to get some premixed Subaru coolant too.
     
    y_p_w, Feb 29, 2004
    #5
  6. Greg Houston

    Greg Houston Guest

    For clarification to my original post, the MOPAR and Zerex G-05 are HOAT
    (Hybrid Organic Acid Technology) coolants, not OAT. From what I can
    determine the difference is silicates. The HOAT coolants contain a moderate
    amount of silicates, which pure OAT coolants (e.g. Dex-Cool) do not have.

    Apparently the lack of silicates in pure OAT coolants have been linked to
    water pump failures.

    I'm not sure if either of these two PEAK antifreezes are HOAT or OAT.
    Neither MSDS discusses silicates, Zerex G-05's MSDS does. I am suspicious of
    the "PEAK® Global Extended Life Antifreeze & Coolant" because it claims to
    meet both Dex-Cool (OAT) AND the new Chrysler (HOAT) requirements.

    It seems like it is real easy to claim a product meets a car maker's
    specification. It would be nice to see a verification of this. Until then,
    I would continue to use only Mopar Red Extended
     
    Greg Houston, Mar 1, 2004
    #6
  7. Greg Houston

    y_p_w Guest

    Really - I keep on hearing that silicates are considered to be a
    cause of early water pump failures (when they start precipitating
    out). I've heard that GM's warranty claims for water pump failures
    went way down when they switched to Dex-Cool. Doing a little
    research, it sounds as if silicone (not silicate) is a water pump
    lubricant.

    Silicates are supposed to coat and protect aluminum surfaces. However -
    it sounds as if the main problems with Dex-Cool have been in sludge
    building up in cast iron block engines running low on coolant.
    I'm still a little bit dubious about extended-life claims.
     
    y_p_w, Mar 1, 2004
    #7
  8. A couple of things here:

    If silicates are starting to precipitate out, then the neglectful owner
    who didn't keep the cooling system serviced deserves the nuisance and
    expense of a prematurely dead water pump.

    Also, what is an "early" water pump failure, to you? I've driven a lot of
    cars a lot of miles on plain old ordinary changed-every-2-years
    silicate-containing coolants, and have experienced very few water pump
    failures, and those I have experienced have been minor leaks at high
    miles.
    Dex-Cool attacks certain gasket materials and dressings, causing
    exterior and interior coolant leaks at the head gasket. It also attacks
    and/or fails to prevent corrosion of many solder formulations, causing
    leaks at seams and junctions in radiators and heater cores.
    Me too. I do not advocate increasing expense and service hassle to cushion
    the stupidity of people too ignert to keep their cars serviced.

    DS
     
    Daniel J. Stern, Mar 1, 2004
    #8
  9. Greg Houston

    Guest Guest

    I started using Dex-cool when it first appeared in retail stores and
    have never had any cooling system problems in it. All my cars since
    the mid-1980s have been Toyotas, 2 which had run conventional green
    antifreeze for a couple of years after the factory Toyota antifreeze
    had been changed. With the others I replaced the Toyota antifreeze
    directly with Dex-cool. Is Dex-cool actually that bad, or is the
    problem GM cooling systems?
     
    Guest, Mar 1, 2004
    #9
  10. Greg Houston

    Bill Putney Guest

    If the industry info. is to be believed, I think what they're saying
    about HOAT vs. OAT vs. the green stuff is that the industry has
    discovered thru trial and error that *no* silicates is not the right
    answer, and that *a lot of* silicates is also not the right answer.
    There is a small amount of silicates which is the right amount that has
    some benefits without causing problems.

    Bill Putney
    (to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
    address with "x")
     
    Bill Putney, Mar 1, 2004
    #10
  11. Greg Houston

    HLS Guest

    The question is not 'IF' the silicates will precipitate from a formulation.
    They DO and there is no way chemically to stop them.

    As someone mentioned, the likelihood of it resulting in an observed problem
    may
    be a matter of degree, but the silicates will fall out no matter what is
    done.


    ..
     
    HLS, Mar 1, 2004
    #11
  12. *Sniped a whole bunch of stuff*

    Remember when we just used water in the radiator?

    Ah, the simple life!
     
    Soars with Turkeys, Mar 1, 2004
    #12
  13. GM's current and recent cooling systems aren't really known trouble spots,
    but I can't comment directly; I don't own any GM products.
     
    Daniel J. Stern, Mar 1, 2004
    #13
  14. Greg Houston

    Greg Houston Guest

    For a recap of the claimed problems with Dex-Cool, see
    http://www.imcool.com/articles/antifreeze-coolant/CPM-52-DEXArticle-Excerpt.pdf

    Imcool.com has tons of useful information on vehicle cooling systems.

    They also printed a letter they wrote to a Dex-Cool plantiff attorney at
    http://www.imcool.com/articles/antifreeze-coolant/DEX-COOL_Request_Proof_Of_Claims.htm
     
    Greg Houston, Mar 2, 2004
    #14
  15. Greg Houston

    Jimmy Guest

    HOAT is not OAT with silicates. They are different.
    Other way around. Silicates cause the failures.
    Don't buy any coolant that the manufacturer won't give you an MSDS
    for unless it's a "factory" coolant (they tend to hide them too).
    Peak is playing games. They can't meet HOAT and OAT requirements with
    one product.
     
    Jimmy, Mar 2, 2004
    #15
  16. Greg Houston

    Steve Guest


    Only in certain water pump designs and under certain conditions. If the
    car was made for silicates, the pump will be fine.

    I'm very leary of both OAT and HOAT antifreeze formulas. While I would
    not rush out and drain HOAT out of a new car and put in classic
    Prestone, one thing that I would *never* do is put a HOAT antifreeze in
    a car that didn't come with it originally.
     
    Steve, Mar 2, 2004
    #16
  17. Greg Houston

    Greg Houston Guest

    That's not true. The predominant difference between OAT and HOAT coolantsare the
    silicates. OAT coolants rely soley on their organic acids to prevent corrosion
    and have not silicates. HOAT coolants also have these organic acids, however they
    also have some silicates (but less than traditional coolants). That's where the
    word "hybrid" (the H in OAT) comes from. HOAT coolants are a moderately
    silicated hybrid between traditional silicated coolants (relatively high amounts
    of silicates) and OAT coolants (no silicates).


    Quote:
    "What?s a HOAT? Hybrid OAT in this case means it has a
    traditional Ethylene Glycol-base, with a single OAT
    inhibitor and is moderately silicated. The version now
    being installed by DC, and tested by Ford, is based on
    the German BASF product, Glysantin G 05. It has been
    used in extensively in European Mercedes Benz and
    other manufacturer?s vehicles since the late 1980?s.
    New users expect that it will provide the 5-year, 100K
    miles coverage they desire. G 05 proponents believe
    that its moderate dose of silicates provide greater
    aluminum protection than a straight OAT while still
    being water pump friendly."
    Reference:
    http://www.imcool.com/articles/antifreeze-coolant/G05-Glysantin.htm


    Not in the cases I was discussing involving OAT coolants. There are no silicates
    in pure OAT coolants.
    The PEAK and Zerex coolants I have discusses have MSDSs readily available, online
    at their respective websites.
    True. So, is the "PEAK® Extended Life CF-EXL" coolant, HOAT or OAT?

    As for the second coolant, "PEAK® Global Extended Life" it is marketed as a top
    off fluid. If it is OAT and is only used occasionally to top off the fluid, it
    may be relatively fine for both HOAT and OAT systems. Still, I wouldn't use it in
    my (HOAT filled ) vehicle.
     
    Greg Houston, Mar 3, 2004
    #17
  18. Greg Houston

    Bill Putney Guest

    The traditional(green) stuff has a relatively high amount of silicates.
    That is claimed to cause failures. The DexCool™/Prestone Long Life™ has
    *no* silicates in it, and it is claimed that that is not ideal either.
    The G-05 is claimed to have just the right amount of silicates in it -
    not too little, not too much, just right.

    Am I right?

    Bill Putney
    (to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
    address with "x")
     
    Bill Putney, Mar 3, 2004
    #18
  19. Greg Houston

    y_p_w Guest

    Almost all Japanese automakers at one time used silicate-free coolant
    meant to be drained every 2 years or 24/30K miles. They stressed
    the silicate-free part, because they claimed it screwed up their
    water pumps. They also supposedly used phosphate-based corrosion
    inhibitors. For example, Honda Type 2 (long life) coolant only
    claims to be silicate and borate-free.

    It seems the European automakers stressed phosphate-free coolants.
    Something about typically hard water in Europe causing the phosphates
    to precipitate or something.

    Then there's the new OAT coolants which try to appeal to the European
    crowd, as well as the Japanese automaker crowd. They seem to have
    gone without silicate, borates, nitrates, and phosphates. Whether
    or not it can work properly without silicates OR phosphates seem to
    be the debate.
     
    y_p_w, Mar 4, 2004
    #19
  20. Greg Houston

    Bill Putney Guest

    One of the reasons the type of coolant on the Japanese cars of the era
    was so critical was that the radiator tubes were extremely fine (i.e.,
    the inside oval cross-section height of the tubes was very small). This
    meant that even a slight build up of residue and/or corrosion inside the
    tubes greatly affected the flow and cooling capacity - it didn't take
    much at all to completey block the tubes. This was not true of the
    typical American car radiator, and there was significant reserve
    capacity in the size of the radiator, so build up and radiator
    performance degradation was not important except in extreme cases.

    From my ownership of an '86 Subaru turbo wagon to 275k miles and
    considerable time spent on Subaru forums, it became understood within
    the Subaru owner community that the radiators would have to be replaced
    every 80k or so miles *if* the "American" type of coolants (i.e., the
    green stuff) and tap (not distilled) water were used. Aafter the
    introduction of the Extended Life™ coolant into the AMerican market, the
    standard advice became to use only it and distilled water for indefinite
    radiator life (unless the external fins got clogged or corroded away,
    but that's another story).

    Back then, Subaru, Toyota, and Honda sold their own "brand" of coolant
    at the dealer. The price was unbelievable - something like $10 or $14 a
    gallon. The typical American owner (including yours truly) assumed that
    was a gimmick - after all - antifreeze is antifreeze. I was told it was
    the low- or no-phosphates that was the key, but I still thought it was a
    gimmick. We all learned that it was no gimmick when our temperature
    gages started creeping up, with the nice side benefit with those engines
    that if you waited around to replace the radiator, you also would be
    replacing the cracked heads.

    Bill Putney
    (to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
    address with "x")
     
    Bill Putney, Mar 4, 2004
    #20
Ask a Question

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

You'll need to choose a username for the site, which only take a couple of moments (here). After that, you can post your question and our members will help you out.