PEAK extended life coolant now available for Chrysler

[Greg Houston]

A year ago, I posted <http://tinyurl.com/37qr3> that Zerex
had begun selling their G-05 antifreeze, which was
equivalent to the new Chrysler extended life 5 year/ 100,000
mile OAT fluid. (Chrysler Spec #MS9769) The only
difference between the Mopar fluid and the Zerex G-05 is
that the Mopar fluid is dyed orange/red and Zerex G-05 is
dyed gold. (Antifreeze colors cannot be compared between
manufacturers.) Apparently Zerex was the OEM for the Mopar
fluid. The G-05 was developed by Ford as well as Chrysler,
so it meets both specs. GM came up with the Dex Cool which
is NOT compatible with the Chrysler extended life fluid.
(Apparently Dex Cool may have caused problems for GM
vehicles too).

PEAK antifreeze is now selling an Extended Life 100,000
Mile/5 Year Antifreeze & Coolant that meets the Chrysler
MS9769 standard. They call this PEAK® Extended Life
CF-EXL. Their website also includes the material safety
data sheet [MSDS]
See http://www.peakantifreeze.com/peak_cfexl.html

They also claim another new product, PEAK® Global Extended
Life is compatible with the new Chrysler and Ford Fluids
too, plus numerous others.
See http://www.peakantifreeze.com/peak_global.html

"PEAK GLOBAL Extended Life Antifreeze & Coolant is based on
patented organic acid technology (OAT) and uses patented
advanced engine protecting inhibitors to provide maximum
protection against damaging rust and corrosion in all
automotive cooling systems. "

Peak is manufactured by Old World Industries. Does anyone
have more information on this? Are they licensing the OAT
coolant patents from BASF and/or Zerex?

 

[Richard Benner Jr]

A year ago, I posted <http://tinyurl.com/37qr3> that Zerex
had begun selling their G-05 antifreeze, which was
equivalent to the new Chrysler extended life 5 year/ 100,000
mile OAT fluid. (Chrysler Spec #MS9769) The only
difference between the Mopar fluid and the Zerex G-05 is
that the Mopar fluid is dyed orange/red and Zerex G-05 is
dyed gold. (Antifreeze colors cannot be compared between
manufacturers.) Apparently Zerex was the OEM for the Mopar
fluid. The G-05 was developed by Ford as well as Chrysler,
so it meets both specs. GM came up with the Dex Cool which
is NOT compatible with the Chrysler extended life fluid.
(Apparently Dex Cool may have caused problems for GM
vehicles too).

PEAK antifreeze is now selling an Extended Life 100,000
Mile/5 Year Antifreeze & Coolant that meets the Chrysler
MS9769 standard. They call this PEAK® Extended Life
CF-EXL. Their website also includes the material safety
data sheet [MSDS]
See http://www.peakantifreeze.com/peak_cfexl.html

They also claim another new product, PEAK® Global Extended
Life is compatible with the new Chrysler and Ford Fluids
too, plus numerous others.
See http://www.peakantifreeze.com/peak_global.html

"PEAK GLOBAL Extended Life Antifreeze & Coolant is based on
patented organic acid technology (OAT) and uses patented
advanced engine protecting inhibitors to provide maximum
protection against damaging rust and corrosion in all
automotive cooling systems. "

Peak is manufactured by Old World Industries. Does anyone
have more information on this? Are they licensing the OAT
coolant patents from BASF and/or Zerex?

THANKS for the information.

 

[Daniel J. Stern]

On Sun, 29 Feb 2004, Greg Houston wrote:

They also claim another new product, PEAK® Global Extended
Life is compatible with the new Chrysler and Ford Fluids
too, plus numerous others.
See http://www.peakantifreeze.com/peak_global.html

"PEAK GLOBAL Extended Life Antifreeze & Coolant is based on
patented organic acid technology (OAT)

When I see this, the hair on the back of my neck stands up. OAT is also
what's used in Dex-Cool and in Prestone's red long-life stuff, and my
experience has been awful (leaks, corrosion, gasket attack) using OAT
coolants in '60s through '90s systems designed for conventional silicate
chemistry.

From what I understand about G-05, it's worth consideration. I will *not*
try OAT coolant again in a system not specifically designed for it -- I
bought too many radiators and solder jobs and head gaskets and heater
cores while doing so before.

DS

 

[Jimmy]

From what I understand about G-05, it's worth consideration. I will *not*
try OAT coolant again in a system not specifically designed for it -- I
bought too many radiators and solder jobs and head gaskets and heater
cores while doing so before.

Even systems "designed for it" have had problems. Do a web search or
two. "Contamination" is the problem,and it comes form sources like
factory sealers, solder, air, etc.

 

[y_p_w]

On Sun, 29 Feb 2004, Greg Houston wrote:




When I see this, the hair on the back of my neck stands up. OAT is also
what's used in Dex-Cool and in Prestone's red long-life stuff, and my
experience has been awful (leaks, corrosion, gasket attack) using OAT
coolants in '60s through '90s systems designed for conventional silicate
chemistry.

Well - Prestone's "extended life" coolant is orange, and they recently
got the second Dex-Cool license. I believe ACDelco coolant is likely
just repackaged Havoline extended life.

From what I understand about G-05, it's worth consideration. I will *not*
try OAT coolant again in a system not specifically designed for it -- I
bought too many radiators and solder jobs and head gaskets and heater
cores while doing so before.

The fact is that the majority of new cars come with silicate-free
coolant using some sort of OAT. Not all are so-called "extended
life" - Subaru would be an example. I'm not sure how compatible
these are - Prestone claimed they've "lab tested" theirs for
compatibility with various extended-life coolants. However -
they seem to have removed this from their website in the past
few days.

However - to be on the safe side, I've have a bottle of Prestone
extended-life (I used Dex-Cool in my Integra) as well as Toyota
Long Life Red. I'm going to get some premixed Subaru coolant too.

 

[Greg Houston]

When I see this, the hair on the back of my neck stands up. OAT is also
what's used in Dex-Cool and in Prestone's red long-life stuff, and my
experience has been awful (leaks, corrosion, gasket attack) using OAT
coolants in '60s through '90s systems designed for conventional silicate
chemistry.

From what I understand about G-05, it's worth consideration. I will *not*
try OAT coolant again in a system not specifically designed for it -- I
bought too many radiators and solder jobs and head gaskets and heater
cores while doing so before.

For clarification to my original post, the MOPAR and Zerex G-05 are HOAT
(Hybrid Organic Acid Technology) coolants, not OAT. From what I can
determine the difference is silicates. The HOAT coolants contain a moderate
amount of silicates, which pure OAT coolants (e.g. Dex-Cool) do not have.

Apparently the lack of silicates in pure OAT coolants have been linked to
water pump failures.

I'm not sure if either of these two PEAK antifreezes are HOAT or OAT.
Neither MSDS discusses silicates, Zerex G-05's MSDS does. I am suspicious of
the "PEAK® Global Extended Life Antifreeze & Coolant" because it claims to
meet both Dex-Cool (OAT) AND the new Chrysler (HOAT) requirements.

It seems like it is real easy to claim a product meets a car maker's
specification. It would be nice to see a verification of this. Until then,
I would continue to use only Mopar Red Extended

 

[y_p_w]

:




For clarification to my original post, the MOPAR and Zerex G-05 are HOAT
(Hybrid Organic Acid Technology) coolants, not OAT. From what I can
determine the difference is silicates. The HOAT coolants contain a moderate
amount of silicates, which pure OAT coolants (e.g. Dex-Cool) do not have.

Apparently the lack of silicates in pure OAT coolants have been linked to
water pump failures.

Really - I keep on hearing that silicates are considered to be a
cause of early water pump failures (when they start precipitating
out). I've heard that GM's warranty claims for water pump failures
went way down when they switched to Dex-Cool. Doing a little
research, it sounds as if silicone (not silicate) is a water pump
lubricant.

Silicates are supposed to coat and protect aluminum surfaces. However -
it sounds as if the main problems with Dex-Cool have been in sludge
building up in cast iron block engines running low on coolant.

I'm not sure if either of these two PEAK antifreezes are HOAT or OAT.
Neither MSDS discusses silicates, Zerex G-05's MSDS does. I am suspicious of
the "PEAK® Global Extended Life Antifreeze & Coolant" because it claims to
meet both Dex-Cool (OAT) AND the new Chrysler (HOAT) requirements.

It seems like it is real easy to claim a product meets a car maker's
specification. It would be nice to see a verification of this. Until then,
I would continue to use only Mopar Red Extended

I'm still a little bit dubious about extended-life claims.

 

[Daniel J. Stern]

Really - I keep on hearing that silicates are considered to be a cause
of early water pump failures (when they start precipitating out).

A couple of things here:

If silicates are starting to precipitate out, then the neglectful owner
who didn't keep the cooling system serviced deserves the nuisance and
expense of a prematurely dead water pump.

Also, what is an "early" water pump failure, to you? I've driven a lot of
cars a lot of miles on plain old ordinary changed-every-2-years
silicate-containing coolants, and have experienced very few water pump
failures, and those I have experienced have been minor leaks at high
miles.

Silicates are supposed to coat and protect aluminum surfaces. However -
it sounds as if the main problems with Dex-Cool have been in sludge
building up in cast iron block engines running low on coolant.

Dex-Cool attacks certain gasket materials and dressings, causing
exterior and interior coolant leaks at the head gasket. It also attacks
and/or fails to prevent corrosion of many solder formulations, causing
leaks at seams and junctions in radiators and heater cores.

I'm still a little bit dubious about extended-life claims.

Me too. I do not advocate increasing expense and service hassle to cushion
the stupidity of people too ignert to keep their cars serviced.

DS

 

[Guest]

When I see this, the hair on the back of my neck stands up.
OAT is also what's used in Dex-Cool and in Prestone's red
long-life stuff, and my experience has been awful (leaks,
corrosion, gasket attack) using OAT coolants in '60s
through '90s systems designed for conventional silicate
chemistry.

I started using Dex-cool when it first appeared in retail stores and
have never had any cooling system problems in it. All my cars since
the mid-1980s have been Toyotas, 2 which had run conventional green
antifreeze for a couple of years after the factory Toyota antifreeze
had been changed. With the others I replaced the Toyota antifreeze
directly with Dex-cool. Is Dex-cool actually that bad, or is the
problem GM cooling systems?

 

[Bill Putney]

Really - I keep on hearing that silicates are considered to be a
cause of early water pump failures (when they start precipitating
out). I've heard that GM's warranty claims for water pump failures
went way down when they switched to Dex-Cool.

If the industry info. is to be believed, I think what they're saying
about HOAT vs. OAT vs. the green stuff is that the industry has
discovered thru trial and error that *no* silicates is not the right
answer, and that *a lot of* silicates is also not the right answer.
There is a small amount of silicates which is the right amount that has
some benefits without causing problems.

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with "x")

 

[HLS]

The question is not 'IF' the silicates will precipitate from a formulation.
They DO and there is no way chemically to stop them.

As someone mentioned, the likelihood of it resulting in an observed problem
may
be a matter of degree, but the silicates will fall out no matter what is
done.


..

 

[Soars with Turkeys]

*Sniped a whole bunch of stuff*

Remember when we just used water in the radiator?

Ah, the simple life!

 

[Daniel J. Stern]

Is Dex-cool actually that bad, or is the problem GM cooling systems?

GM's current and recent cooling systems aren't really known trouble spots,
but I can't comment directly; I don't own any GM products.

 

[Greg Houston]

GM's current and recent cooling systems aren't really known trouble spots,
but I can't comment directly; I don't own any GM products.

For a recap of the claimed problems with Dex-Cool, see
http://www.imcool.com/articles/antifreeze-coolant/CPM-52-DEXArticle-Excerpt.pdf

Imcool.com has tons of useful information on vehicle cooling systems.

They also printed a letter they wrote to a Dex-Cool plantiff attorney at
http://www.imcool.com/articles/antifreeze-coolant/DEX-COOL_Request_Proof_Of_Claims.htm

 

[Jimmy]

For clarification to my original post, the MOPAR and Zerex G-05 are HOAT
(Hybrid Organic Acid Technology) coolants, not OAT. From what I can
determine the difference is silicates. The HOAT coolants contain a moderate
amount of silicates, which pure OAT coolants (e.g. Dex-Cool) do not have.

HOAT is not OAT with silicates. They are different.

Apparently the lack of silicates in pure OAT coolants have been linked to
water pump failures.

Other way around. Silicates cause the failures.

I'm not sure if either of these two PEAK antifreezes are HOAT or OAT.
Neither MSDS discusses silicates, Zerex G-05's MSDS does. I am suspicious of
the "PEAK® Global Extended Life Antifreeze & Coolant" because it claims to
meet both Dex-Cool (OAT) AND the new Chrysler (HOAT) requirements.

Don't buy any coolant that the manufacturer won't give you an MSDS
for unless it's a "factory" coolant (they tend to hide them too).

It seems like it is real easy to claim a product meets a car maker's
specification. It would be nice to see a verification of this. Until then,
I would continue to use only Mopar Red Extended

Peak is playing games. They can't meet HOAT and OAT requirements with
one product.

 

[Steve]

Other way around. Silicates cause the failures.

Only in certain water pump designs and under certain conditions. If the
car was made for silicates, the pump will be fine.

I'm very leary of both OAT and HOAT antifreeze formulas. While I would
not rush out and drain HOAT out of a new car and put in classic
Prestone, one thing that I would *never* do is put a HOAT antifreeze in
a car that didn't come with it originally.

 

[Greg Houston]

HOAT is not OAT with silicates. They are different.

That's not true. The predominant difference between OAT and HOAT coolantsare the
silicates. OAT coolants rely soley on their organic acids to prevent corrosion
and have not silicates. HOAT coolants also have these organic acids, however they
also have some silicates (but less than traditional coolants). That's where the
word "hybrid" (the H in OAT) comes from. HOAT coolants are a moderately
silicated hybrid between traditional silicated coolants (relatively high amounts
of silicates) and OAT coolants (no silicates).


Quote:
"What?s a HOAT? Hybrid OAT in this case means it has a
traditional Ethylene Glycol-base, with a single OAT
inhibitor and is moderately silicated. The version now
being installed by DC, and tested by Ford, is based on
the German BASF product, Glysantin G 05. It has been
used in extensively in European Mercedes Benz and
other manufacturer?s vehicles since the late 1980?s.
New users expect that it will provide the 5-year, 100K
miles coverage they desire. G 05 proponents believe
that its moderate dose of silicates provide greater
aluminum protection than a straight OAT while still
being water pump friendly."
Reference:
http://www.imcool.com/articles/antifreeze-coolant/G05-Glysantin.htm

Other way around. Silicates cause the failures.

Not in the cases I was discussing involving OAT coolants. There are no silicates
in pure OAT coolants.

Don't buy any coolant that the manufacturer won't give you an MSDS
for unless it's a "factory" coolant (they tend to hide them too).

The PEAK and Zerex coolants I have discusses have MSDSs readily available, online
at their respective websites.

Peak is playing games. They can't meet HOAT and OAT requirements with
one product.

True. So, is the "PEAK® Extended Life CF-EXL" coolant, HOAT or OAT?

As for the second coolant, "PEAK® Global Extended Life" it is marketed as a top
off fluid. If it is OAT and is only used occasionally to top off the fluid, it
may be relatively fine for both HOAT and OAT systems. Still, I wouldn't use it in
my (HOAT filled ) vehicle.

 

[Bill Putney]

...The HOAT coolants contain a moderate

HOAT is not OAT with silicates. They are different.


Other way around. Silicates cause the failures.

The traditional(green) stuff has a relatively high amount of silicates.
That is claimed to cause failures. The DexCool™/Prestone Long Life™ has
*no* silicates in it, and it is claimed that that is not ideal either.
The G-05 is claimed to have just the right amount of silicates in it -
not too little, not too much, just right.

Am I right?

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with "x")

 

[y_p_w]

The traditional(green) stuff has a relatively high amount of silicates.
That is claimed to cause failures. The DexCool?/Prestone Long Life? has
*no* silicates in it, and it is claimed that that is not ideal either.
The G-05 is claimed to have just the right amount of silicates in it -
not too little, not too much, just right.

Am I right?

Almost all Japanese automakers at one time used silicate-free coolant
meant to be drained every 2 years or 24/30K miles. They stressed
the silicate-free part, because they claimed it screwed up their
water pumps. They also supposedly used phosphate-based corrosion
inhibitors. For example, Honda Type 2 (long life) coolant only
claims to be silicate and borate-free.

It seems the European automakers stressed phosphate-free coolants.
Something about typically hard water in Europe causing the phosphates
to precipitate or something.

Then there's the new OAT coolants which try to appeal to the European
crowd, as well as the Japanese automaker crowd. They seem to have
gone without silicate, borates, nitrates, and phosphates. Whether
or not it can work properly without silicates OR phosphates seem to
be the debate.

 

[Bill Putney]

Almost all Japanese automakers at one time used silicate-free coolant
meant to be drained every 2 years or 24/30K miles. They stressed
the silicate-free part, because they claimed it screwed up their
water pumps. They also supposedly used phosphate-based corrosion
inhibitors. For example, Honda Type 2 (long life) coolant only
claims to be silicate and borate-free.

One of the reasons the type of coolant on the Japanese cars of the era
was so critical was that the radiator tubes were extremely fine (i.e.,
the inside oval cross-section height of the tubes was very small). This
meant that even a slight build up of residue and/or corrosion inside the
tubes greatly affected the flow and cooling capacity - it didn't take
much at all to completey block the tubes. This was not true of the
typical American car radiator, and there was significant reserve
capacity in the size of the radiator, so build up and radiator
performance degradation was not important except in extreme cases.

From my ownership of an '86 Subaru turbo wagon to 275k miles and
considerable time spent on Subaru forums, it became understood within
the Subaru owner community that the radiators would have to be replaced
every 80k or so miles *if* the "American" type of coolants (i.e., the
green stuff) and tap (not distilled) water were used. Aafter the
introduction of the Extended Life™ coolant into the AMerican market, the
standard advice became to use only it and distilled water for indefinite
radiator life (unless the external fins got clogged or corroded away,
but that's another story).

Back then, Subaru, Toyota, and Honda sold their own "brand" of coolant
at the dealer. The price was unbelievable - something like $10 or $14 a
gallon. The typical American owner (including yours truly) assumed that
was a gimmick - after all - antifreeze is antifreeze. I was told it was
the low- or no-phosphates that was the key, but I still thought it was a
gimmick. We all learned that it was no gimmick when our temperature
gages started creeping up, with the nice side benefit with those engines
that if you waited around to replace the radiator, you also would be
replacing the cracked heads.

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with "x")