Pacifica future

[Joe Pfeiffer]

Yeah, starting with the Chrysler getting the small Cordoba and then LeBaron instead of those going to Plymouth.

No, the Le Baron coupe was definitely a higher-line vehicle than a Plymouth. The J-Body Cordoba probably shouldn't have happened; it was much, much too similar to the Mirada to be either a Chrysler or a Plymouth.

But that could change. Give Chrysler the 300 and no lower models; let Dodge handle the lower ones. Give them the Town & Country Limited and no lower minivans; Dodge can sell those. Give Chrysler the Sebring convertible only; let Dodge handle the coupe and sedan, which are too small and too cheap for a premium brand.

Sounds like a plan to me... except when the "premium" Chryslers coming down the pike seem to be over-styled, under-powered horror shows. There's also the problem that all those former Chrysler-Plymouth dealers want a volume brand. While the obvious answer to the latter problem is to offer Dodge franchises to the Chrysler dealers, that's likely to have a really bad taste for the existing Dodge dealers.

 

[Matthew S. Whiting]

I've read DC might try to make Chrysler into the "Lexus" of the company (with Dodge being the "Toyota" brand).

Well, I don't know all of the details of automotive history, but I think that is somewhat how the brands started out as they were assembled into Chrysler Corporation. I think Plymouth was originally the economy brand, Dodge was the sporty brand and truck line and Chrysler was the luxury line. I think that was all lost in the late 70s/early 80s when many of the models were sold in two or more of the three brands with nothing more to differentiate them than the grill. GM did the same thing and really killed their brand identity as well. They have been working for more than a decade to undo that damage (remember the law suits about the lowly Chevy engine in the Oldsmobiles). There is a fine line between the economies of scaled gained by sharing major components vs. the loss of aggregate sales when all of your brands become virtually identical in the minds of your customers and they go elsewhere for differentiation.

Matt

 

[C. E. White]

True, but it used to be a real upscale brand -- like Buick. I've read DC is interested in moving it upscale again -- sort of a Lexus to Dodge's Toyota.

That's the problem - how do you erase the memory of 200,000,000 people who remember the K-Car based New Yorker, or "Fine Corinthian Leather?"

Yeah, those 493-hp supercharged V8s and 349-hp supercharged V6s are soooo unexciting!

They aren't affordable and they are wrapped in packages that are as bland as a 20K Camry.

Ed

 

[C. E. White]

I think of it as more Dodge = Ford and Chevy; Chrysler = Mercury and Pontiac. But Chrysler once meant Buick, and DC could bring that back.

When I was young enough to be beguiled by marketing, I though of Dodge as equivalent to Mercury, Plymouth was equal to Ford, and Chrysler was equivalent to Buick. Unfortunately 30+ year of mediocrity has reduced Chrysler to the being Plymouth. Dodge is equivalent to Plymouth too. No wonder they killed Plymouth - they didn't have room for three brands that were all the same.

Yeah, starting with the Chrysler getting the small Cordoba and then LeBaron instead of those going to Plymouth.

Name me the last "great" Chrysler - I bet I was too young to drive when it was built.

But that could change. Give Chrysler the 300 and no lower models; let Dodge handle the lower ones. Give them the Town & Country Limited and no lower minivans; Dodge can sell those. Give Chrysler the Sebring convertible only; let Dodge handle the coupe and sedan, which are too small and too cheap for a premium brand.

To little, too late. You can easily take a brand down scale, hauling it up scale is hard. I doubt the people running DC have the will.

Ed

 

[James C. Reeves]

| Name me the last "great" Chrysler - I bet I was too young to drive when | it was built.

Probably the Imperial?

 

[Art Begun]

Not me. But at least these premium brands have established an aura of quality. Somehow I am unconvinced that the Pacifica has one.

It did get a very nice review by Consumer Reports.

 

[Tom Arneson]

Actually, it was not a troll.

I posted the message. I read the article, which was one of the many articles about Chrysler's recent plant downtimes.

I hope that Pacifica sales do pick up. I am considering buying one myself. I have some reservations, though -- power, low serrial number issues (like the window motors on my 99 300m), and so on, and reading about poor sales and possible discontinuance is one of them, which is why it was on my mind.

 

[Joe (archive)]

Name me the last "great" Chrysler - I bet I was too young to drive when it was built.

Why, the volare station wagon of course. Just kidding.

Chrysler veered off the path in the 50's, way before I was born. The styling went first (Virgil Exner's insane period), followed by the quality in the 60's. I think 55 was the last really good styling year. One could argue that some muscle car was great (like the Daytona), but really what they make now is far better. They still have a long way to go to catch up to the rest of the world, but they have been there forever. They simply didn't have the resources of GM and Ford.

 

[Lloyd Parker]

No, the Le Baron coupe was definitely a higher-line vehicle than a Plymouth.

But identical to the Dodge Diplomat -- the start of making Chrysler and Dodge equivalent.

The J-Body Cordoba probably shouldn't have happened; it was much, much too similar to the Mirada to be either a Chrysler or a Plymouth.

Sounds like a plan to me... except when the "premium" Chryslers coming down the pike seem to be over-styled, under-powered horror shows. There's also the problem that all those former Chrysler-Plymouth dealers want a volume brand. While the obvious answer to the latter problem is to offer Dodge franchises to the Chrysler dealers, that's likely to have a really bad taste for the existing Dodge dealers.

Are there any Chrysler dealers left that don't also sell another product, either Dodge of Jeep?

 

[Lloyd Parker]

Well, I don't know all of the details of automotive history, but I think that is somewhat how the brands started out as they were assembled into Chrysler Corporation. I think Plymouth was originally the economy brand, Dodge was the sporty brand and truck line and Chrysler was the luxury line. I think that was all lost in the late 70s/early 80s when many of the models were sold in two or more of the three brands with nothing more to differentiate them than the grill. GM did the same thing and really killed their brand identity as well. They have been working for more than a decade to undo that damage (remember the law suits about the lowly Chevy engine in the Oldsmobiles). There is a fine line between the economies of scaled gained by sharing major components vs. the loss of aggregate sales when all of your brands become virtually identical in the minds of your customers and they go elsewhere for differentiation.

Matt

In the 60s, it was similar to:

Plymouth = Ford = Chevrolet
Dodge = Mercury = Pontiac
Chrysler = (no Ford equivalent) = Buick and Olds
Imperial = Lincoln = Cadillac

But Imperial was never a sales success, and became a Chrysler instead of its own division. Then Chrysler got Cordoba and LeBaron, and became just restyled Dodges.

 

[Lloyd Parker]

That's the problem - how do you erase the memory of 200,000,000 people who remember the K-Car based New Yorker, or "Fine Corinthian Leather?"

They aren't affordable and they are wrapped in packages that are as bland as a 20K Camry.

Ed

An SL600? An CL55? Bland? Try looking at them!

 

[Lloyd Parker]

| Name me the last "great" Chrysler - I bet I was too young to drive when | it was built.

Probably the Imperial?

Which year? It's been a D-body luxury sedan (and its own division), a C-body "gussied-up" New Yorker, a J-body coupe ("gussied-up" Cordoba), and a Y-body sedan ("gussied-up" Fifth Avenue).

Now 65-66 were very good years for the Imperial...

 

[Lloyd Parker]

It did get a very nice review by Consumer Reports.

Interestingly, their main criticism was the powertrain and lack of power, something all the CR bashers here have criticized about it too...

 

[Lloyd Parker]

They weren't thrilled by the 2x2x2 seating. Also although the text of the review indicate unhappiness with the power, check out the shaded circles. Either a typo or it was competitive.

Look at the acceleration times though.

 

[Joe Pfeiffer]

But identical to the Dodge Diplomat -- the start of making Chrysler and Dodge equivalent.

Ah, OK -- we were talking about different cars. When you said "small Cordoba" I thought you meant the J-Body Cordoba as opposed to the B-Body Cordoba, not the Cordoba itself, and the FWD (J-Body, in a confusing bit of terminology reuse) Le Baron.

The problem with the Cordoba was that the "Charger" was too similar to it, not the other way around. Yes, it was the first (and technically only) B-body Chrysler, but having a Chrysler personal-luxury car of that size made perfect sense. You're right about the late-70s (don't remember the designation) Le Baron: shouldn't have been a Chrysler. Made a great Dodge, should have made a really good Plymouth.

Are there any Chrysler dealers left that don't also sell another product, either Dodge of Jeep?

I think they've all got Jeep now, but that's also not a volume brand in the sense Plymouth should have been either (or if it's become one, we can launch another thread on screwing up Jeep's identity!).

 

[Joe Pfeiffer]

It did get a very nice review by Consumer Reports.

The prosecution rests.

 

[Art Begun]

My favorite Chrysler (besides my 300M) is the space frame model that they threw down the cliff to show the doors would still open after a crash. One of the cable channels did a show on the 100 best American cars a while back and that was a feature. Chrysler used the cliff throw for a commercial and it is still shown often as a gag when someone needs a car going off the cliff scene for a comedy skit. Don't remember the model but it did not sell well. Only an engineer type could love it.

 

[Art Begun]

They weren't thrilled by the 2x2x2 seating. Also although the text of the review indicate unhappiness with the power, check out the shaded circles. Either a typo or it was competitive.

 

[Art Begun]

Do you remember where you found the article?

The 300M power windows was (is) a true debacle. I've had motors, weatherstripping, and regulators replaced on all windows..... some multiple times..... but the other day both front windows stuck for a few seconds. I cleaned off the film left from the earlier weatherstripping. Hope that finishes it.

 

[Joe Pfeiffer]

My favorite Chrysler (besides my 300M) is the space frame model that they threw down the cliff to show the doors would still open after a crash. One of the cable channels did a show on the 100 best American

Airflow.