No help or wrong help for Detroit?

Comments4u

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With automotive supplies (Delphi, J L French, and now Dana) running for bankruptcy protection, it must be wondered if GM and Ford can be far behind. The President has vowed no help for Detroit, and cautioned the automakers about their obligation to their retirees. Of course, when government spending exceeds income, the government merely prints more money, an option that is skewing the President's thinking.

It would seem, as a self-proclaimed war president, the President would want to retain war capable American companies. Nothing matches this description better than the auto companies. And if he were to come to this conclusion, it is obvious he would throw money at the problem, as that is always his solution. Yet money for Detroit is not the answer.

The typical demand of the critics is that Detroit must compete. The implication is that Detroit isn't building good products. What this ignores is two of the the big three factors of selling products: product quality, distribution, and quantity of competition.

"Build a better mousetrap and the world will beat a path to your door"? That's factor one, but its still not enough. Yet that's the shallow single demand of the critics.

People will not make excessive efforts to seek out the best product. They will make reasonable efforts. It has to be convenient. Having a good product is not enough, and, in fact, terrible products capture market share. Yugo is a perfect example. If what the critics say were true, Yugo wouldn't have sold a single unit.

Another enlightening example is the history of minivans. In the 80s, the Chrysler vans were the pick of the class. Yet mediocre products such as Ford's Aerostar and GM's Astro got significant market share. Even some of the hideous looking and ill handling conversions of Tokyo delivery vans by Toyota and Nissan were sold.

The Ford and GM products sold because of great distribution. The Asian products sold because of reasonable distribution and the inability of their buyers to look beyond the nameplate and see the products for the mediocre commercial vehicles they really were, ill suited to passenger use.

It can be expected that the President will remain in denial until the last possible moment. The ability to deny - and the ablity of the person to believe his own denial - dies hard. Even attending dozens of AA meetings can't change this.

Then a public outpour of criticism, similar to the post-Katrina rantings, will prompt the President to throw money at the problem. This is not certain, but probable, as the President would first have to find an automotive services company run by cronies, in the mold of Haliburton, to which he could award the contract.

The real problem lies in the quantity of competition factor. Its model and brand proliferation. Having a good product - or even the best product - isn't enough to overcome the onslaught of every automaker wanting a piece of the American market. The fact that most that attempt will eventually fail doesn't solve the problem.

The actual solution is reduction in brands and models. A prohibition on new brands would prevent disruption by those marginal players likely to fail anyway. Telling Honda, Toyota, and Nissan they must each reduce the number of models offered by one or two would clear a market currently so crowded people can't even learn of all the choices.

If brand and model limitation and reduction were enacted, the remaining question for the President would be whether Daimler-Chrysler, though not an American company, qualified as one that can be relied upon as a war industry, and thus provided protection, or as a foreign company to be ordered to reduce model offerings. Superficially, it seems foreign status would apply, and Daimler-Chrysler be considered an enemy company, not a friendly one.

However, the practical matter is that Daimler-Chrysler should receive the same benefits as GM and Ford. The cooperation of Daimler-Chrysler in war production might not be voluntary, but it can be counted upon. After all, the President has the advantage of enforcement, since the US occuation forces from World War II remain in Germany. Protectorates tend to be compliant.
 
With automotive supplies (Delphi, J L French, and now Dana) running for bankruptcy protection, it must be wondered if GM and Ford can be far behind. The President has vowed no help for Detroit, and cautioned the automakers about their obligation to their retirees. Of course, when government spending exceeds income, the government merely prints more money, an option that is skewing the President's thinking.

Really odd considering that the perscription drug thing was motivated not only by the often mentioned profit motive for the drug companies but to serve as a way for companies like GM to end their coverage of retires and shift the burden to taxpayers.
money at the problem, as that is always his solution. Yet money for Detroit is not the answer.

Considering the union contracts, they are basically running a welfare/entitlement government operation. They just don't have the power to print money or tax. (as you've mentioned)
The typical demand of the critics is that Detroit must compete. The implication is that Detroit isn't building good products. What this ignores is two of the the big three factors of selling products: product quality, distribution, and quantity of competition.
The actual solution is reduction in brands and models.

The solution is never controlled choice. That was tried with CAFE and the big three got drunk on SUV profits and lured back to where they were in the 1970s. What should be done regulation wise is remove CAFE. Ford and GM would be wise to give up their assinine opposition to world wide standards based one ECE standard for things like vehicle lighting etc to allow them to more freely move models between markets as demand required. That also goes into the union contracts which current restrict that.
However, the practical matter is that Daimler-Chrysler should receive the same benefits as GM and Ford.

Chrysler already had a taxpayer funded bailout.
 
Really odd considering that the perscription drug thing was motivated not only by the often mentioned profit motive for the drug companies but to serve as a way for companies like GM to end their coverage of retires and shift the burden to taxpayers.

Considering the union contracts, they are basically running a welfare/entitlement government operation. They just don't have the power to print money or tax. (as you've mentioned)

The solution is never controlled choice. That was tried with CAFE and the big three got drunk on SUV profits and lured back to where they were in the 1970s. What should be done regulation wise is remove CAFE. Ford and GM would be wise to give up their assinine opposition to world wide standards based one ECE standard for things like vehicle lighting etc to allow them to more freely move models between markets as demand required. That also goes into the union contracts which current restrict that.

Chrysler already had a taxpayer funded bailout.
That was all returned, with interest.
 
That was all returned, with interest.

And so? They still have had one and GM and Ford haven't. It was a fairness arguement being made.
 
Chrysler already had a taxpayer funded bailout.

Bzzt! Chrysler never had any such a taxpayer-funded bailout. The government signed loan _guarantees_, which is not at all the same thing as giving a loan. The loans came from banks. Lots of them, all over the world. And Chrysler paid 'em all back, well ahead of schedule. Not one taxpayer-cent was given to Chrysler for a "bailout", pop mythology notwithstanding.
 
Bzzt! Chrysler never had any such a taxpayer-funded bailout. The government signed loan _guarantees_, which is not at all the same thing as giving a loan. The loans came from banks. Lots of them, all over the world. And Chrysler paid 'em all back, well ahead of schedule. Not one taxpayer-cent was given to Chrysler for a "bailout", pop mythology notwithstanding.

Work the semantics any way you wish. Because ultimately, the taxpayers were the one on the hook if they went under.
 
Bzzt! Chrysler never had any such a taxpayer-funded bailout. The government signed loan _guarantees_, which is not at all the same thing as giving a loan. The loans came from banks. Lots of them, all over the world. And Chrysler paid 'em all back, well ahead of schedule. Not one taxpayer-cent was given to Chrysler for a "bailout", pop mythology notwithstanding.

Absolutely correct. Furthermore, the government, under the agreement, had first claim to all Chrysler's assets in the event liquidation became necessary. The asset value exceeded the loan amount to such a degree that the government never had any significant risk.

Yet years later, we keep hearing the pop mythology you refer to.
 
And so? They still have had one and GM and Ford haven't. It was a fairness arguement being made.

As soon as Ford and GM have a viable recovery plan (as Chrysler was required to do at the time...the numbers had to work), I wouldn't have a problem with the government lining up loan guarantees for them. The problem is that if they fail, then the taxpayer IS out the money (the government is basically co-signing their loans, in other words). Plus all the retirement guarantees.

I was taking exception to the term ""taxpayer funded bailout". The Chrysler deal didn't cost the taxpayer a red cent. And Chrysler made good on those loans well before they were due.
 
I was taking exception to the term ""taxpayer funded bailout". The Chrysler deal didn't cost the taxpayer a red cent. And Chrysler made good on those loans well before they were due.

And I was dealing with the fairness arguement. regardless of what it was, the government already helped out one automaker. How it turned out is not relevant.
 
Absolutely correct. Furthermore, the government, under the agreement, had first claim to all Chrysler's assets in the event liquidation became necessary. The asset value exceeded the loan amount to such a degree that the government never had any significant risk.

Yet years later, we keep hearing the pop mythology you refer to.

How did the Chrysler financials of the day compare with the GM/Ford financials today? GM already has $270+ billion of debt (according to yahoo).
 
How did the Chrysler financials of the day compare with the GM/Ford financials today? GM already has $270+ billion of debt (according to yahoo).

I don't know but part of the deal was a huge amount of debt forgiveness. The banks had to forgive debt, then loan **more** although those loans were guaranteed. I have a vague recollection of some little bank in a place like Rockford Illinois almost sinking the whole thing not wanting to forgive part of some small loan... under 100k.
 
And I was dealing with the fairness arguement. regardless of what it was, the government already helped out one automaker. How it turned out is not relevant.

The government had no discernable risk. See my other post.
 
I don't know but part of the deal was a huge amount of debt forgiveness. The banks had to forgive debt, then loan **more** although those loans were guaranteed. I have a vague recollection of some little bank in a place like Rockford Illinois almost sinking the whole thing not wanting to forgive part of some small loan... under 100k.

It would be interesting to know the difference in the "risk profile" of that past deal with Chrysler compared with what might be able to be worked out with GM/Ford today. If it is a similar profile, it might be worth helping them. Of course the competitive dynamics are different now, especially with the Korean makers and the Chinese makers knocking on our door. I simply might be too much for the domestics to compete with.
 
Absolutely correct. Furthermore, the government, under the agreement, had first claim to all Chrysler's assets in the event liquidation became necessary. The asset value exceeded the loan amount to such a degree that the government never had any significant risk.

Yet years later, we keep hearing the pop mythology you refer to.

So, if Chrysler had all of these assets, why did they need a government guarantee?
 
So, if Chrysler had all of these assets, why did they need a government guarantee?

It needed a combination of lower debt and fresh cash. The banks wrote off a lot of the existing loans and the government guaranteed the new loans, taking first claim on company assets... meaning the remaining old loans had little security.

Chrysler's assets were insufficient to secure more loans on top of the old ones, but sufficient so that the new ones against the assets were reasonably secure.
 
Work the semantics any way you wish. Because ultimately, the taxpayers were the one on the hook if they went under.

In the sense that banks pay taxes, then yes.

Don't look at me, my bank invested in Enron. So An American company failed and this Canadian taxpayer was on the hook.

I think they call this "pretzel logic".
 
The government had no discernable risk. See my other post.

No risk means the government wasn't needed. There's a flaw somewhere.
 
Brent said:
No risk means the government wasn't needed. There's a flaw somewhere.

Consider, Brent: When you take out a mortgage or car loan, the bank (etc.) holds your title (first claim on your assets) in order to minimize their risk -- we shouldn't take "no discernable" too literally here. Would you say the bank isn't needed?
 
Work the semantics any way you wish. Because ultimately, the taxpayers were the one on the hook if they went under.

"Loan" vs. "loan guarantee" is not a question of "working the semantics", any more than "orange" vs. "carburetor".

The taxpayers would've been on the hook if Chrysler had gone under, but guess what? The human race would've been on the hook if the Cuban Missile Crisis had gone differently, too.

For such a little word, "if" has a lot of power.
 

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