Molybedum in motor oil

  • Thread starter Thread starter Jim
  • Start date Start date
J

Jim

Is this a good additive? A colleague indicated to buy motor oil with this
ingredient in it. And Boron also. How do I find out what is in oil?
 
Jim said:
Is this a good additive? A colleague indicated to buy motor oil with this
ingredient in it. And Boron also. How do I find out what is in oil?
Click to expand...

You could be buying in to an "urban myth". Molybdenum (note the spelling)
is a metallic extreme pressure lubricant but is not commonly used as an
engine oil additive. The most common anti wear and extreme pressure wear
additive is, get this, Zinc dialkyldithiophosphate and is used by every oil
company in their motor oils as it is the best product for the job. Oils are
categorized by an API (American petroleum institute) designation which
outlines a minimum performance and durability requirement for any
designation. Listed below are the various oil designations. An SG
designated oil is superior to an SF designation, the higher the letter the
higher the performance standard of any given oil. Since the letter
designation represents a minimum given performance requirement it makes all
oils of that designation equal. In other words to say Pennzoil is superior
to Standard Chevron oil would be pure BS since both are rated equally in
that same API designation. An oil can however exceed a designation in which
case it usually states meets or exceeds API designation S* on the container.
Also beware of oil additives as most are overpriced snake oil that are of
little if any benefit over what a good quality motor oil changed at
recommended intervals will provide. I see your name is Jim not Mark,
however be my guest if you want to purchase them.
Regards from a professional mechanic,
Lugnut

Gasoline Engines:
a.. SA - For engines operating under mild conditions. No special
protection capabilities (mineral oil).
b.. SB - For light-duty engine operation. Has anti-scuff capabilities,
resists oil oxidation, retards bearing corrosion.
c.. SC - Minimum requirements for all 1964 to 1967 passenger cars and
light trucks. Controls high- and low-temperature deposits. Retards rust and
corrosion in gasoline engines.
d.. SD - For 1968 and later engine warranty service. Better high- and
low-temperature deposit control than "SC". Also rust/corrosion resistant.
e.. SE - For 1972 and later gasoline-engine warranty maintenance service.
It provides maximum protection against rust, corrosion, wear, oil oxidation,
and high-temperature deposits that can cause oil thickening.
f.. SF - For gasoline engines in passenger cars and some trucks beginning
with 1980 models operating under engine manufacturers' recommended
maintenance procedures.
g.. SG - This designation is for 1987 and newer car models.
h.. SH - This designation is for 1994 and newer car models.
 
Jim said:
Is this a good additive? A colleague indicated to buy motor oil with this
ingredient in it. And Boron also. How do I find out what is in oil?
Click to expand...

This is a case of "well it works in severe duty so it must be better than
what
we use for normal duty"

Molybedum based lubes operate on the "coating" principal in that the moly in
the oil is supposed to coat the engine parts to make it run easier. The
primary
use of moly-oils is for boat engines, because a coating of moly is very good
for
preventing the formation of rust on steel. Boat engines sit for long
periods near
water without being run, so there's lots of opportunity for the oil to run
completely off
the inside of the engine and for water and oxygen to create rust.

Some people also claim that moly-coated bullets reduce fouling, and moly
lubes
are also used sometimes on guns used in dusty environments. The idea
here is that the moly is deposited off onto the metal by the oil that is
carrying it,
and acts as a dry lube. (ie: the coating wears instead of the metal) Of
course
you got to keep applying it to keep the coating on the gun.

I've also read about people using it on old rear-axles to quiet them down,
and
in motorcycle engines where the transmission gears and engine share oil.
However I never used moly-oil in my own motorcycle when I had it and
I never had problems.

But in an auto engine I think that they really do nothing at all. In a
properly
running and properly lubed engine there is not supposed to be metal-to-metal
contact on any wearing surfaces, because there's always supposed to be an
oil film between metal surfaces. The only time there isn't an oil film is
during
startup, and a few other places (like piston rings) where there is
extreme pressure. In short, the oil film "wears" not the metal surface, so
a
coating on the surface isn't doing anything.

Ted
 
torque wrench said:
You could be buying in to an "urban myth". Molybdenum (note the spelling)
is a metallic extreme pressure lubricant but is not commonly used as an
engine oil additive. The most common anti wear and extreme pressure wear
additive is, get this, Zinc dialkyldithiophosphate and is used by every oil
company in their motor oils as it is the best product for the job. Oils are
categorized by an API (American petroleum institute) designation which
outlines a minimum performance and durability requirement for any
designation. Listed below are the various oil designations. An SG
designated oil is superior to an SF designation, the higher the letter the
higher the performance standard of any given oil. Since the letter
designation represents a minimum given performance requirement it makes all
oils of that designation equal. In other words to say Pennzoil is superior
to Standard Chevron oil would be pure BS since both are rated equally in
that same API designation. An oil can however exceed a designation in which
case it usually states meets or exceeds API designation S* on the container.
Also beware of oil additives as most are overpriced snake oil that are of
little if any benefit over what a good quality motor oil changed at
recommended intervals will provide. I see your name is Jim not Mark,
however be my guest if you want to purchase them.
Regards from a professional mechanic,
Lugnut

Gasoline Engines:
a.. SA - For engines operating under mild conditions. No special
protection capabilities (mineral oil).
b.. SB - For light-duty engine operation. Has anti-scuff capabilities,
resists oil oxidation, retards bearing corrosion.
c.. SC - Minimum requirements for all 1964 to 1967 passenger cars and
light trucks. Controls high- and low-temperature deposits. Retards rust and
corrosion in gasoline engines.
d.. SD - For 1968 and later engine warranty service. Better high- and
low-temperature deposit control than "SC". Also rust/corrosion resistant.
e.. SE - For 1972 and later gasoline-engine warranty maintenance service.
It provides maximum protection against rust, corrosion, wear, oil oxidation,
and high-temperature deposits that can cause oil thickening.
f.. SF - For gasoline engines in passenger cars and some trucks beginning
with 1980 models operating under engine manufacturers' recommended
maintenance procedures.
g.. SG - This designation is for 1987 and newer car models.
h.. SH - This designation is for 1994 and newer car models.
Click to expand...

What is this, a cut and paste of a ten year old technical article
on motor oil?
Zinc dialkyldithiophosphate hasn't been used in automotive motor
oil since 1995 because it (zinc dialkyldithiophosphate) poisons
catalytic convertors.

Current API motor oil designation for gasoline engines is SL.
 
Neil Nelson said:
What is this, a cut and paste of a ten year old technical article
on motor oil?
Zinc dialkyldithiophosphate hasn't been used in automotive motor
oil since 1995 because it (zinc dialkyldithiophosphate) poisons
catalytic convertors.

Current API motor oil designation for gasoline engines is SL.
Click to expand...



Mobil's msds sheets still list it.
http://tinyurl.com/vfbo
 
Ted Mittelstaedt said:
This is a case of "well it works in severe duty so it must be better than
what
we use for normal duty"

Molybedum based lubes operate on the "coating" principal in that the moly in
the oil is supposed to coat the engine parts to make it run easier. The
primary
use of moly-oils is for boat engines, because a coating of moly is very good
for
preventing the formation of rust on steel. Boat engines sit for long
periods near
water without being run, so there's lots of opportunity for the oil to run
completely off
the inside of the engine and for water and oxygen to create rust.

Some people also claim that moly-coated bullets reduce fouling, and moly
lubes
are also used sometimes on guns used in dusty environments. The idea
here is that the moly is deposited off onto the metal by the oil that is
carrying it,
and acts as a dry lube. (ie: the coating wears instead of the metal) Of
course
you got to keep applying it to keep the coating on the gun.

I've also read about people using it on old rear-axles to quiet them down,
and
in motorcycle engines where the transmission gears and engine share oil.
However I never used moly-oil in my own motorcycle when I had it and
I never had problems.

But in an auto engine I think that they really do nothing at all. In a
properly
running and properly lubed engine there is not supposed to be metal-to-metal
contact on any wearing surfaces, because there's always supposed to be an
oil film between metal surfaces. The only time there isn't an oil film is
during
startup, and a few other places (like piston rings) where there is
extreme pressure. In short, the oil film "wears" not the metal surface, so
a
coating on the surface isn't doing anything.

Ted
Click to expand...

Ted,

This site is where the net oil geeks hang out. Their opinion on moly does
not appear to be consistent with your 'expert' analysis. What are your
qualifications in regards to lubricants?
 
Jim said:
Ted,

This site is where the net oil geeks hang out.
Click to expand...

WHAT site are you talking about?
Their opinion on moly does
not appear to be consistent with your 'expert' analysis.
Click to expand...

Since you fail to provide the site, perhaps you would care to reword their
explanation here, for the rest of us non-omnipotent people who cannot
read the URL out of your mind? Or are you not able to understand their
explanation?

I don't see where you get off with this 'expert' bullshit anyway. Reread my
explanation, I said that _I_believe_. Get a clue, dude. How much more
clearer do I have to say something before morons like you understand
that your reading an opinion, not a statement of fact?
What are your
qualifications in regards to lubricants?
Click to expand...

Well I could say that I sell Amsoil that would qualify me for everything in
lubricants, right? Although I don't see Molybedum in the Amsoil list of
ingredients for their motor oil, (It's in their lithium grease, though)
so I guess an Amsoil rep wouldn't agree with your net oil geeks either.

This is the Teflon thing all over again. People just can't seem to shake
the
idea that putting solids into motor oil (which displace the lubricating
fluid)
somehow improves lubrication in a garden variety car engine. You think
Molybedum is so great, fine - post a link to a controlled study proving it's
better in the average car engine. Until then you better accept that
everything
you read on it, regardless of who wrote it and how qualified they are,
is nothing more than opinion only.

Ted
 
Ted Mittelstaedt said:
WHAT site are you talking about?


Since you fail to provide the site, perhaps you would care to reword their
explanation here, for the rest of us non-omnipotent people who cannot
read the URL out of your mind? Or are you not able to understand their
explanation?

I don't see where you get off with this 'expert' bullshit anyway. Reread my
explanation, I said that _I_believe_. Get a clue, dude. How much more
clearer do I have to say something before morons like you understand
that your reading an opinion, not a statement of fact?


Well I could say that I sell Amsoil that would qualify me for everything in
lubricants, right? Although I don't see Molybedum in the Amsoil list of
ingredients for their motor oil, (It's in their lithium grease, though)
so I guess an Amsoil rep wouldn't agree with your net oil geeks either.

This is the Teflon thing all over again. People just can't seem to shake
the
idea that putting solids into motor oil (which displace the lubricating
fluid)
somehow improves lubrication in a garden variety car engine. You think
Molybedum is so great, fine - post a link to a controlled study proving it's
better in the average car engine. Until then you better accept that
everything
you read on it, regardless of who wrote it and how qualified they are,
is nothing more than opinion only.

Ted
Click to expand...



Sorry, here is the link. I did a search in the Virgin oil analysis
section(VOA) to ascertain which lubricants contain Molybedum.

http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php
 
Ted Mittelstaedt said:
WHAT site are you talking about?


Since you fail to provide the site, perhaps you would care to reword their
explanation here, for the rest of us non-omnipotent people who cannot
read the URL out of your mind? Or are you not able to understand their
explanation?
Click to expand...

Caught redhanded, so the dodge is to beat on him for omitting the URL.
I don't see where you get off with this 'expert' bullshit anyway. Reread my
explanation, I said that _I_believe_. Get a clue, dude.
Click to expand...

'believe' appears nowhere in your text. YOU get a clue.

Well I could say that I sell Amsoil that would qualify me for everything in
lubricants, right? Although I don't see Molybedum in the Amsoil list of
ingredients for their motor oil, (It's in their lithium grease, though)
so I guess an Amsoil rep wouldn't agree with your net oil geeks either.

non-sequiter

This is the Teflon thing all over again. People just can't seem to shake
the
idea that putting solids into motor oil (which displace the lubricating
fluid)
somehow improves lubrication in a garden variety car engine.
Click to expand...

non-sequiter

You think
Molybedum is so great, fine - post a link to a controlled study proving it's
better in the average car engine.
Click to expand...

Now you're the one who needs to improve their reading comprehension. He
started the thread with the post:

"Is this a good additive? A colleague indicated to buy motor oil with this
ingredient in it. And Boron also. How do I find out what is in oil?"

Nowhere did he state he thought moly or boron were good components. Get
off your high horse.

Until then you better accept that
everything
you read on it, regardless of who wrote it and how qualified they are,
is nothing more than opinion only.

Ted
Click to expand...

Ted, you're great at backpedaling. You're also great at presenting an
opinion as fact, then claiming later it was only an opinion.

Sheesh.

--Geoff
 
Sorry, here is the link. I did a search in the Virgin oil analysis
section(VOA) to ascertain which lubricants contain Molybedum.

http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php
Click to expand...

Well, I dug through the site searching on the term Molybdenum. (I assume
that this is the same
thing you meant, you just misspelled it, and no I'm not going to stoop to a
spelling flame unlike some
others in this forum)

Here's the most technical explanation
of what it does I could find that someone posted (basically exactly what I
said already - the coating principle):

"The moly in molybdenum trialkyldithocarbamate (MoTYDC's) starts out as a
moly "pentasulfide" salt with a dithiocarbamate acid added. The salts are
then stabilized with poly phenylene sulfide polymers and an alkyl group of
2-ethylheyl's. The result is a polymerized fluid that is slightly golden in
color (light amber).

When in oil, the MoTDC decomposes to form "moly sulfide films on frictional
surfaces, of which the particles adhered to the porous iron sulfide film
produced by the reaction of the decomposed sulfur compounds and iron
surfaces, and that these components make an extreme pressure or anti-wear
film."

When used with ZDDP, a third layer of film is formed which creates an iron
phosphide film. Stating it another way, three films are formed to create a
plastic layer; MoS2, FePO4, and FeS. It is these three films that react
under pressure to form a plastic "sliding" layer which prevents metal
contact. I.E., instead of metals gouging into each other, they slide over
one another on this "plastic" film."


Of course, the thing that the poster didn't explain is why in an engine
would you have metals sliding over each
other in the first place.

So, as I already said in my first post, in a properly
running and properly lubed engine there is not supposed to be metal-to-metal
contact on any wearing surfaces, (with few exceptions) because there's
always supposed to be an
oil film between metal surfaces

If you dig through the oil "geek site" for the thread the above came from
(should be very easy)
you will find as many people in that thread that claim Moly does nothing at
all in a regular auto
engine, as who claim that it does something.

There are several other "Moly" threads on the forums in that site, all as
equally inconclusive
over the benefits of it. A few people even pointed out that some engines
disgorge Moly,
see their used oil analysis section.

I'm going to file it in the "Synthetic Oil" pile - it's only better if you
believe it's better! ;-)

Ted
 
Geoff said:
Caught redhanded, so the dodge is to beat on him for omitting the URL.
Click to expand...

Have nothing to say, so your going to metadiscuss. Well, OK then...
Nowhere did he state he thought moly or boron were good components. Get
off your high horse.
Click to expand...

Initially that is true - he did not state that he thought they were good
components in
his first post. And if you bothered to read my followup I was not knocking
Molybedum
in all lubricants and all situations, only in the specific situation of an
auto engine
crankcase.

However his followup to me with the missing URL by it's context was clearly
an
attack on my opinion, with no supporting statements. In short, "Your wrong
and I'm not going to explain why, just say that your wrong because a bunch
of
so-called Net Geeks on Oil believe differently" That is a pretty cowardly
response,
to not even put up a defence of why Moly in crankcase oil is a good thing,
just
say point blank that is is and anyone that thinks differently is wrong.

Frankly I don't care for that, and I react to things I don't care for. If
someone is going to
argue with me then at the very least they can present an explanation of why
they think
I'm wrong. He didn't, I came down on him. Maybe you are taking offence on
the way
I did - why? He didn't.
Ted, you're great at backpedaling. You're also great at presenting an
opinion as fact, then claiming later it was only an opinion.
Click to expand...

Geoff, I hate to break it to you but nobody gives a rip about your opinions
of
how I present anything. The people that are reading this thread are
interested in
the benefits/detriments of Moly. And so far you have contributed absolutely
nothing
of value to that discussion. I, by contrast, have. Even Jim has done more
than you
with his contribution of a most interesting URL. Perhaps you should learn
from this.

Ted
 
Geoff, I hate to break it to you but nobody gives a rip about your
opinions
of
how I present anything.
Click to expand...

Frankly, Ted, you must have, otherwise you wouldn't have seen fit to reply.
Perhaps you should learn
from this.
Click to expand...

Nah. I'm satisfied that YOU'VE learned something. That's enough for me.

--Geoff
 
Ted Mittelstaedt said:
What, that your easy to flame?

Ted
Click to expand...

No that you can rely upon your own high horse to be tripped up at every
opportunity.
--Geoff
 
Geoff said:
No that you can rely upon your own high horse to be tripped up at every
opportunity.
--Geoff
Click to expand...

STILL nothing to contribute to the thread regarding Moly? Will you ever
learn?

Ted
 
STILL nothing to contribute to the thread regarding Moly? Will you ever
learn?
Click to expand...

Ted, you haven't contributed anything to it in that vein in the past couple
of days either. You're too busy nursing your wounded pride.

--Geoff
 
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