Modern Tires Ruin the Roads

Yes it are!

Matt

 

Yes, that is quite odd. When I lived in England a couple of decades
ago, I noticed that their roads were generally in better shape than
those in the States. Also, they seemed to have much smooth approaches
to their bridges, whereas it seems that ours always have a sag where the
road has settled right before the bridge.

I suspect some has to do with climate differences, but I always wondered
if there were some materials or techniques that were also making a
difference that could be shared.


Matt

 

Tar MacAdam - The beginnings of the modern paved road - named after John
Loudon MacAdam - a Scot, from whom we get the word "tarmac".

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

Best practice means taking into account traffic and climatic conditions, of
course. And axle loads.

The roads in hot regions needs to be different to those in cold. Particular
problems arise when the temps fluctuate from -10 to +30 degC over the year,
of course...

From my experience of driving around in different places (and from comments
from that road engineer) I have no doubt things could be done better in many
places.

DAS

For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling

 

Maybe there is a bit of a not-invented-here mindset in Britain because of
that.

However, you would think that, pooling the engineerng knowledge just five of
the biggies -- USA, France, Germany, Britain, Italy (a pioneer of private
motorways in Europe) -- we could do better.

DAS

For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling

 

I agree, but I'm not sure there is a strong incentive to do better. The
road building companies get paid by the mile, not by how good their
product is, unlike most other companies. And they compete for work
based primarily on price, not quality. I've always thought that "low
bidder contracting" was stupid, but that is how things are done in the
road building industry, at least in the USA. Maybe things are different
in Europe.

If a construction company had to bid not only on the road construction,
but also had to provide maintenance and repairs for the next 30 years,
maybe things would get built better.

Matt

 

Dori - I see that your degree is not in English either. (ouch)

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

I like the construction contract requiring maintenance. However, to
prevent companies from forming, bidding low and then folding before
the maintenance bills came in perhaps having the whole process
underwritten by an insurance co might not be too bad an idea to ensure
there's somebody to sue.

I'd like to see a way to remove the politicians from the decision
making process as well.

I'm in the UK at the moment where gas (Petrol?) is $5.88 US a US
gallon, there's no real amount of ground frost, no blazing hot summers
and the roads are coarse, slippery and quite rough and poorly
maintained compared to what they once were when the fuel taxation
level was much less.

The excuses given include land constraints, budget constraints, EU
legislation, etc, etc. In the UK it's the politicians who are ruining
the roads. (I won't even begin to talk about the London (tax)
congestion charge.

 

Yes, you'd have to have a bond of some sort or maybe just hold the
company principals personally liable even if their corporation folds!

Yep, but that'll never happen as they control the money.


Matt

 

1) You're right (not Your right) (Chemistry, BTW.)

2) I, too, fall victim to the curse of e-mail/NGs. Taking no time to check
properly...

DAS

For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
---

 

That's odd. In which bit of the UK are you? Ground frost (freezing
temperature) is being reported from many parts of the country.

Road building/spending is not politically fashionable and politicians don't
have the guts to stick with proper maintenance programmes, even, let alone
building the many village bypasses that are sorely needed. Whenever there
is a money shortage, first thing that goes is road money. I don't think EU
legislation has anything to do with it. (From where did you pluck that
one?).

Although I tend to agree with the thrust of your thinking I don't actually
agree with all your details. Who says we don't get hot summers? In
southern England it can get to 30 degrees and some roads may get a bit soft.
Stupid, isn't it? Ok, we don't experience Nevada desert temps.

Actually, fuel taxation is not that high in real terms. Fuel is relatively
cheaper than in the past, but I could not say by how much, especially as you
did not specify a year or period. 2000? 1990? 1960?

And you should understand that UK taxes on motoring go into the general tax
pot and are not earmarked for road building, just as tobacco taxes don't go
into funding better cigarette factories or tobacco farmers in Cuba (or even
building lung cancer hospitals...).

Some of the grottiest highway surfaces I have experienced were in the USA,
so it all depends on one's perspective, one's sensitivity (one may overlook
local poor quality more easily) and on which bit of road one happens to be
travelling.

A related example of perspective is motorway mileage. The UK has many fewer
miles of motorway than some comparable western European countries, but when
one adds in the miles of dual-carriageway non-motorway roads the situation
looks much more respectable. (The speed limit is the same.)

And yes, I am dead against the London "congestion charge" as well. I voted
for the main opposition mayoral candidate at the last election mainly
because he promised to abolish this charge and I can't stand Ken
Livingstone, the mayor. However, a majority of Londonders disagreed with
me... And don't get ME started on Ken Livingstone as I shall get VERY
off-topic and into blue language... But I will say that he is good on TV and
I think that is what helped him get re-elected.

DAS

For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling

 

I've heard the tick-tick-tick of stones caught in the tread of tires since I
started driving. And that was 35 years ago! Your assumption that older
tires didn't pick up stones if incorrect.

 

I'm in the East Midlands where there is surface frost, but not any
degree of frost in the ground. I've yet to see any heaving or burst
sewer pipes as a result of frost in this county. How deep is the
frost line in the ground where you are?

I "plucked" that one from many excuses provided to constituents who
call asking about the pace and direction of progress. In the local
area we're still working on getting the bypass started which was
tentatively approved 30 years ago. Many of the engineers at work find
the Euro excuse works 99.9% of the time to placate agitated rate
payers.

The temperature has peaked here in the midlands near 30'C as well, if
I recall correctly. However, there is a big difference between 2
months of 30'C+ and 2 - 3 hours of 30'C. Keeping in mind that most
homes aren't air conditioned, I will concede that 30'C probably feels
hotter for most English. The real challenge for engineers is the
prairies (I believe that a location in Alberta Canada once went from
+24'C --> -6'C in under 24 hours. though -25'C --> + 3'C is more
common over a day or two)

The tax range of 75% isn't that high? Even Switzerland fuel is taxed
at a lower rate. Yes, relative to income the cost of fuel (and
motoring for that matter) has come down substantially, but the degree
of petrol taxation has increased.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/world/2000/world_fuel_crisis/933648.stm
Sorry couldn't find any charts that included the 50's 60's & 70's

I have to agree with you there. But they aren't paying .60 ppL on
their fuel

Mathematically you're correct. one little wrinkle to the math is the
way in which dual carriage ways are constructed here in the UK. A
nearby town has a dual carriageway bypass. 5 miles long and there are
4 roundabouts 2 of which have had traffic lights installed. In North
America there are locations which beg for roundabouts yet traffic
lights are installed. Here there are locations which beg for fly
overs or synchronized lights and roundabouts are installed.

I guess when one's only tool is a hammer every problem becomes a nail.

as for Ken..................



PS preceding not spell checked, grammar checked or even reread ;-)

PPS there are some roman roads in the area that are pushing 2000 years
old, though they've not had "Modern Tires/Tyres" on them for that
duration

 

See below.
--
For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
---

DAS: Pass, ask me another... A mm? ;-)

DAS: I am not sure whether to be amazed or not at this pathetic excuse. It
certainly seems in keeping with the fashion of 'Brussels-bashing' in which
most English (probably not Scottish) politicians like to indulge. The EU
civil service gets blamed for the most absurd things, whether they are are
responsible or not, or even whether the issues are real or not.

Your case certainly confirms what I was saying about bypasses. I once saw a
list of 200 that had to be built, but tree-huggers from Hampstead &
Islington (trendy districts in London with leftish politics) descended on
the plans and locations to cut them.

DAS: That is my point. What we don't need is the government trying to keep
fuel prices up in real terms. As a percentage of selling price the tax is,
indeed, high, as it is in all of western Europe, and relatively high in
eastern Europe. The price per litre may be lower in Poland, for example,
but wages are much lower.

DAS: Like I said, tax on fuel is not earmarked, though I might wish it were
at least to some extent.

[...]

DAS: Yes, but it is not always so bad and non-motorway dual carriageway
roads still allow one to make rapid progress in general. Just as motorway
standard is no guarantee of free-flowing traffic at 70 mph (the legal
limit).

DAS: This did occur to me, too. Time we looked at their building
techniques? Anyway, the OP was yet another non-issue but some useful
discussions on 'real' topics emerged.

 

Try from -20F to +40F in less than 12 hours. That's just a mild
Chinook.

 

I had one come off the front tire of my '69 Dart in "71 and come
almost through the top of the front fender.

 

Yes the UK fuel prices have not increased as fast as in NA over the last
25 yrs, but the UK fuel taxes are still much higher as a percentage of
fuel costs.

Yes UK roads are much better maintained than in the USA and Canada, but
most roads bases are very old and settled and frost damage isn't a
factor.
Even Canada with such great distances between major population centers
has better roads than in the USA. Canada's fuel costs are higher than
in the USA due to taxes. It's obvious the USA needs higher fuel taxes to
provide for better road maintenance. I frequently drive in the USA
western states and see the frequent poor maintenance of the I5, that
runs from Canada to the southern USA.
Canada's roads do suffer significant frost damage each winter, so watch
the potholes in late winter and spring. >

 

The UK doesn't know what deep frost is.
A few years ago Ottawa, Canada experienced frozen water pipes over 4
feet down. They now are placing them deeper.
That was a record cold winter, in spite of global warming. <

 

Salt does more damage.

--
"Now Phoebe Snow direct can go
from thirty-third to Buffalo.
From Broadway bright the tubes run right
Into the Road of Anthracite"
Erie - Lackawanna

 

There's no potholes like EnY potholes...

(Doesn't scan but you get my meaning.)

DAS

For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling