labor charge-by the hour or book???

Discussion in 'General Motoring' started by TOM KAN PA, Apr 23, 2004.

  1. TOM KAN PA

    TOM KAN PA Guest

    Do shops charge an hourly rate for the time that it takes to do the job, or the
    time that "the book" says that it takes?

    I took the P T in to have the snow tires taken off. When I picked it up, they
    told me I needed lower control arm bushings. He looked in the book and said it
    would take 2 1/2 hours per side, a total of five hours labor. So I made an
    appointment, dropped the car off Wednesday afternoon. They called at 11:10
    Thursday morning and said it was done, they started it first thing in the
    morning.
    The labor was $288. 5 hours at $57.50 an hour would be $288. But they only had
    it for 2 hours and 40 minutes. This would translate to $107.87 per hour.
    Should I question this charge??
     
    TOM KAN PA, Apr 23, 2004
    #1
  2. TOM KAN PA

    PC Medic Guest

    I would certainly question it.
    Not sure what state you are in (or if you are even in the states now that I
    think of it), but most states require the hourly labor rate to be posted.
    If this guy tells you he is worth $107 an hour I would not return.
     
    PC Medic, Apr 23, 2004
    #2
  3. TOM KAN PA

    Geoff Guest

    You might gripe a bit. But you must keep in mind that you knew going in
    what you agreed to pay, and they charged you just exactly that.

    Frankly, mechanics starve if they can't beat the book time on a job. It is
    commonplace for a mechanic to book 40 hours of "labor book" time, sometime
    on Wednesday or Thursday of a five-day workweek. It is not dishonest, as
    long as the mechanic only charges what the customer agreed to pay, in my
    opinion.

    But like I said, you might gripe a bit. If they're feeling generous,
    (likely because you promise to bring them additional work soon--and look
    like you intend to keep the promise), they might give you a small break.
    But they would be doing you a *favor*, and you should treat it as such. I
    would be looking for a discount here in the future, rather than a refund, by
    the way.

    After all, the most important thing is that they charged you *what you
    agreed to pay*. All such dealings are open to negotiation prior to the
    commencement of work; you just happened to leave a little more money on the
    table than you might have otherwise. Fortunately, it was not an extremely
    expensive way to learn this lesson.

    And yes, a *good* mechanic, doing solid, high-quality work that he stands
    behind, is worth $100 an hour. Try getting a *good* lawyer, plumber or
    other professional to work for less. I don't.

    --Geoff
     
    Geoff, Apr 23, 2004
    #3
  4. TOM KAN PA

    Lisa Horton Guest

    I believe that charging by book hours is standard, at least around
    here. I think the book lists the time that it would take a semi trained
    chimp to do the job.

    Lisa
     
    Lisa Horton, Apr 23, 2004
    #4
  5. Geoff wrote:

    That's why I go to a mechanic who only charges for actual time.
    Yes, it's $70 an hour, but he's consistently come in at 3/4 the
    cost of the nearest competitor.
     
    Joseph Oberlander, Apr 23, 2004
    #5
  6. Where was it that you took it? Chrysler dealer? Tire store? Other?

    How many miles on this car of yours?

    I'm a little suspicious of a claim that LCA bushings would be worn out.
    Strikes me there aren't many PTs with enough miles on them yet to need LCA
    bushings. Wonder if LCA bushings are the "You need a new idler arm" of the
    21st century.

    DS
     
    Daniel J. Stern, Apr 23, 2004
    #6
  7. TOM KAN PA

    Cloaked Guest

    I used to have a mechanic that charged "actual time'.

    Over time, as I gave him more and more work, he would charge me
    "actual time" up to the listed book time. He NEVER charged me more
    than the 'book time".

    As I figure it, it was a combination of the fact that I was a good
    customer, but also a matter of pride for him. He was an excellent
    mechanic, and as you said 99% of the time he beat the book - and the
    competition - by a country mile. It was awefully sporting of him to
    give me a break since sometimes shit happens and a job is more work
    than a person might expect - through no fault of his.

    Tought to find these guys, but they are worth their weight in gold
    when you do! :)
     
    Cloaked, Apr 23, 2004
    #7
  8. TOM KAN PA

    Cloaked Guest

    That struck me as odd too! PTs have not not been out that long! I have
    heard they are a piece of crap, but this is nuts!

    I have NEVER had a car where I have to relace those bushings - not
    that it does not happen from time to time.

    Then again, until I had an A604 tranmission, I never had a trans that
    did not last at least 100,000 MILES (NOT KMS!).
     
    Cloaked, Apr 23, 2004
    #8
  9. I guess it's the ethics. Anyone who can lie right to you that
    a job will take three hours when they know it will take only
    half that time - that's just not right.

    If it takes 2 hours or 4, that's what I should pay.

    If I hire an electrician, I don't pay for a full day, afterall.
    If he's there 2 hours, that's exactly what I get charged. \
     
    Joseph Oberlander, Apr 23, 2004
    #9
  10. The newer Ford and Chrysler transmission are junk, thanks to
    cost-cutting. Some genius did a "Neon" on them.

    When I owned a beater Neon for two months(point A to point B
    transportation while my Volvo was in the shop), I ran across a
    person who worked for Chrysler as an engineer.

    He said that they would come back with a part - say a door
    latch - and say "this part is lasting longer than the warranty -
    redesign it". I thought he was making it up, but he assurred me
    that Chrysler engineers everything on their vehicles - every
    single part to last no longer than one std deviation above the
    length of their warranties - with a couple of exceptions like
    the Wrangler, which takes a lot more abuse.

    Ford mandates a 5% cost to them reduction from their suppliers
    per year, now, the same as Wal-Mart does with many of its suppliers.

    $12K vehicle today. 5 years later, sells for $15K due to inflation.
    Figure it has an actual $8K in parts and $4K in labor. This is typical
    of most "econoboxes". $10K in parts in 5 years.

    8/12 turns into 10/15. So far so good. The rest is labor and such and
    profit. 2/3 parts, 1/3 labor and profits. "Parts" includes tooling,
    paint, r&d - everything other than labor and profits and advertizing.

    5% per year cost reduction: $6200 cost to Ford(down from $8000).
    Adjusted for inflation: $7800. Let's call it $8000.

    So Ford has effectively kept their cost the same over 5 years, but
    is now selling the same car for $15K. They went from $3K to $7K
    in non-materials billing. Great for the stock holders, but since
    lower quality($1800 in real non-adjusted cost has to come
    from somewhere) parts are being produced via outsourcing an
    cost-cutting...

    Instead of doing R&D, you buy out other firms or portions of
    them to gain access. Again, great on paper but screws the
    system(witness Chrysler using then dumping Mitsubishi)

    Meanwhile, Hyundai sells their $10K vehicle for $12K now.
    $6600 in parts before, $8000 in parts after 5 years. Hyundai
    is making the same profit margins as before, but are putting
    more raw materials and r&d into the car than Ford at this point.


    GM? GM thankfully doesn't do this sort of nonsense, but their
    vehicles are dreadful to begin with. Sigh. Drive like a...
    Well, you go drive an IS300 or an Accord V6 and see if anything
    they sell is comparable.
     
    Joseph Oberlander, Apr 23, 2004
    #10
  11. The 200,000-plus mile lifespan of an AA-body, the durability of the 2.2,
    2.5, 3.3 and 3.8 litre engines and other examples contradict this.
    The utter shittiness of GM vehicles contradicts *this*.
    ....and repair basically nothing until, one day, the entire car starts
    breaking and failing.

    US or European car: more/smaller repairs over the life of the vehicle,
    enabling that life to be extended indefinitely as long as the basic
    structure is roadworthy

    Japanese car: Fewer/larger repairs over the life of the vehicle until all
    the coordinated-lifespan engineering comes due and everything fails,
    making it economically unfeasible to keep the car.

    DS
     
    Daniel J. Stern, Apr 23, 2004
    #11
  12. TOM KAN PA

    Bob Shuman Guest

    I think your friend was either pulling your leg or did not know what he was
    talking about....

    I can't believe that Chrysler, or for that matter any manufacturer, would
    re-design any part to fail sooner. This goes contrary to all logic and my
    real world experience. The cost of re-designing anything is never trivial
    since the cost goes far beyond the simple engineering labor and obvious
    production start-up costs. Simply creating a new part number, getting a
    supplier set up and able to produce/deliver, qualifying the part, tracking
    its usage, and stocking a new item can easily exceed the re-design labor and
    tooling costs. Beyond the obvious, there are also additional costs to
    modify all of the associated bills of materials and manufacturing procedures
    that used the old part as well as all product documentation that referenced
    it.

    I do believe the statement that all parts are engineered and that the useful
    life expectancy is one of the major factors considered during the design. I
    just don't think they would purposely go back to reduce an item's longevity
    unless there was a more realistic goal, like possibly reducing an items
    cost.

    Bob
     
    Bob Shuman, Apr 23, 2004
    #12
  13. TOM KAN PA

    TOM KAN PA Guest

    << It is not dishonest, as long as the mechanic only charges what the customer
    agreed to pay, in my opinion. >>
    ____Reply Separator_____
    I didn't agree to a dollar amount, I agreed to paying for five hours labor
    being done. If it was done in two hours, I should be charged for two hours.
     
    TOM KAN PA, Apr 23, 2004
    #13
  14. TOM KAN PA

    Bill 2 Guest

    Wouldn't you say that a European car (eg: VW) will just fall apart to begin
    with?
    I know someone with a car like this. Their Camry was working great till 260
    000km when it all started falling apart. They had more repairs than our Ford
    Taurus of similar vintage. Also remember that of those repairs you do to a
    Japanese car, they will cost more because parts cost more.
     
    Bill 2, Apr 23, 2004
    #14
  15. TOM KAN PA

    Bob Shuman Guest

    maybe they had two mechanics working on your vehicle for 2 1/2 hours each...
     
    Bob Shuman, Apr 23, 2004
    #15
  16. Yes, VWs practically come pre-disassembled just like Vegas used to be made
    out of compressed rust.

    DS
     
    Daniel J. Stern, Apr 23, 2004
    #16
  17. TOM KAN PA

    Guest Guest

    99+% of all shops work on the "book" system - otherwise known as flat
    rate. The law in Ontario stipulates the charge rate must be displayed,
    and that the charge system must be explained.
    Technically, the book lists "labour units" which are nominally an
    hour.
    A competent mechanic should be able to do the job properly in this
    period of time. The good thing about the system is they give you a
    "quote" of, say 5 hours at $80.00 per hour (not out of line at a
    dealership) - for a total of $400. If the mechanic does it in 3 or 8
    hours, you pay $400.
    The bad part of the system is "generally" the mechanic does the job in
    60% of book time.
    The worse part of the system, is mechanics often take short-cuts to
    beat the time, as they are "generally" paid by the flat rate as well.

    A lot of (usually smaller independent) shops pay the mechanic by the
    hour (so he has no incentive to cheat) and quote by the book.
    If a 6 hour book job takes 4, they often knock the price back to 5, so
    that if the next 6 hour job takes 7 they do not have to charge above
    the quote to get by.

    The mechanic is also paid to clean up the shop, take out the garbage,
    service the hoist etc which is "really" part of the job you are paying
    for, whether your car is still in the shop or not.

    I'm not defending "flat rate" - just explaining it. When I was service
    manager, my men were on straight time, and "the book" was a good
    guideline for scheduling, estimating, and quoting. The law does not
    say I cannot charge less than my quote, so sometimes, when things went
    better than expected, the customer got a pleasant surprise when they
    picked up their car.
    Had to be carefull though, because Warranty work is ALL bby the book,
    and warranty payment was based on "door rate" or "chargeout" -
    typically 80% of retail rate, and if you did customers favours, the
    factory rep figured you could do it for less for him too ---------.

    The week after I left the SM position, the shop converted to straight
    flat rate, and lost a fair number of formerly loyal customers.
     
    Guest, Apr 23, 2004
    #17
  18. The engiens are good, but the rest of the cars is pure crap
    built to last maybe 100K. Check out the numerous people with
    transmissions going out every 30-40K.

    Lol. No - they just build the same crap they always did.
    Good. Better than $300 for a module and engine mounts that fail
    every 30K miles and plastic radiators and...

    Trust me - don't buy a Ford or GM. Chrysler? Maybe 2-3 models
    are worth getting.
    Not true. I can't tell you how many old Toyota pickups I see going
    and going and going as long as the frame isn't rusted out.
     
    Joseph Oberlander, Apr 24, 2004
    #18
  19. No - they reduced the quality until it was deemed to be acceptable as
    opposed to lasting nearly forever and pocketed the savings a few dollars
    at a time.
    Cost-cutting is all the rage now. A redesign of a non-critical part to
    save money may be as simple as going with a less expensive power window
    switch. You don't put the 100K cycle model in a car with an expected
    10 year lifespan(say a Neon). Figuring a maximum of 5 window openings
    a day, that's 3500 a year(10 total per day times 350).

    So you put the 30000 MTBF part in. Car works as usual, but doesn't
    last like the same as the older versions. 8 switches times 25 cents
    a switch savings is $2 per car right there.

    The industry is rife with this, unfortunately.

    Take the switches on an old Mercedes or Volvo. Tank. Reminiscent of
    switches used in professional audio applications. Now, they feel
    exactly like the cheap crud Ford makes.

    $1 here, $2 there - maybe save $500 per car in costs and if it
    looks tacky or lasts only 8-10 years instead of 15? Who cares.
    Exactly. but it is all about cost. Greedy bastards. You can hardly
    buy any vehicle today that is made to last more than a decade without
    major problems. $500 more in quality would fix this, but it's not
    like they sell a "ruggedized" version of the cars for that extra money,
    do they?
     
    Joseph Oberlander, Apr 24, 2004
    #19
  20. This put you apart from 90% of the others.

    That they lost a lot of customers shows that the idea that you
    pay for hours done is a common belief by most people.
     
    Joseph Oberlander, Apr 24, 2004
    #20
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