Intrepid wheel alignment - done right?

[Greg Houston]

Several months ago, I let my dealer do a 4 wheel alignment
on my 99 Intrepid. When you get an alignment these days, is
it customary for them to put everything in the middle of the
range? From what it looks like, I just paid for an
expensive piece of paper. The rear right toe and the total
toe were slightly out of range, but they said that they
don't fix these unless they are really out of line. Should
they have centered the adjustments in the range (especially
the RR toe and Total Toe which were out of range) or am I
just being picky? The factory service manual preferred
setting is the middle of the ranges...

(all numbers are degrees)

Acceptable
Range
Front Left:
Camber Actual 0.0 -0.6 to 0.6
Caster Actual 2.3 2.0 to 4.0
Toe Actual 0.08 -0.05 to 0.15

Front Right:
Camber Actual -0.1 -0.6 to 0.6
Caster Actual 2.1 2.0 to 4.0
Toe Actual 0.08 -0.05 to 0.15

Cross Camber Actual 0.1 -0.7 to 0.7
Cross Caster Actual 0.2 -1.0 to 1.0
Total Toe Actual 0.16 -0.10 to 0.30

Rear Left
Camber Actual 0.2 -0.7 to 0.3
Toe Actual -0.10 -0.10 to 0.20

Rear Right
Camber Actual -0.1 -0.7 to 0.3
Toe Actual -0.12 -0.10 to 0.20 *OUT OF RANGE*

Total Toe Actual -0.22 -0.20 to 0.40 *OUT OF RANGE*
Thrust Actual 0.01 -0.15 to 0.15

 

[news.east.earthlink.net]

You paid to get everything in range. They did not do that. Bring it back.
Doesn't have to be in middle but has to be within manufacturing tolerances.
In some cases some cars don't have adjustments available for certain cases
unless you use 3rd party parts but the guy did not tell you that that was a
problem. He just didn't do it.

 

[Neil Nelson]

Several months ago, I let my dealer do a 4 wheel alignment
on my 99 Intrepid. When you get an alignment these days, is
it customary for them to put everything in the middle of the
range? From what it looks like, I just paid for an
expensive piece of paper. The rear right toe and the total
toe were slightly out of range, but they said that they
don't fix these unless they are really out of line. Should
they have centered the adjustments in the range (especially
the RR toe and Total Toe which were out of range) or am I
just being picky? The factory service manual preferred
setting is the middle of the ranges...

You're being picky.

Two one hundredths of a degree is what it is out on rear toe.
That is NOT going to cause any tire wear problems.

No mention that you were/are dis-satisfied with the way the
vehicle tracks, so I'll assume there isn't a problem.

This is a classic example of why alignment machines that measure
to two places to the right of the decimal point are bullshit.

 

[Daniel J. Stern]

Two one hundredths of a degree is what it is out on rear toe. That is
NOT going to cause any tire wear problems. No mention that you were/are
dis-satisfied with the way the vehicle tracks, so I'll assume there
isn't a problem. This is a classic example of why alignment machines
that measure to two places to the right of the decimal point are
bullshit.

The best alignment shop here in town does NOT give a printout when you
come to pick up your freshly-aligned car, not even if you ask. Probably
for exactly this reason. They stand behind their work; if it's wrong --
which it isn't -- they'll make it right. Works for me.

DS

 

[Art]

I do not have access to Chrysler's published alignment specs. But if the
specs are published as X.XX as he wrote (and not X.X), seems to me that it
is not BS.

 

[Neil Nelson]

I do not have access to Chrysler's published alignment specs.

They were included in the original post.

But if the
specs are published as X.XX as he wrote (and not X.X), seems to me that it
is not BS.

Really?

How many years doing alignments do you have?

 

[Bill Putney]

The best alignment shop here in town does NOT give a printout when you
come to pick up your freshly-aligned car, not even if you ask. Probably
for exactly this reason. They stand behind their work; if it's wrong --
which it isn't -- they'll make it right. Works for me.

DS

That's great for you, but where I live, if you have your alignment done
with that philosophy, you're likely to end up with strange tire wear
problems and no leverage whatsoever to fight utter b.s. to try to get a
warranty adjustment and repeat the cycle on the next set of tires.

I invested a little money a couple of years ago because I was having
tire problems and could get no meaningful help from alignment shops, and
without knowing what my alignmnet numbers were, I was blind in
troubleshooting the cause of the problem. I had a fresh alignment done,
and then went to another shop and had them simply measure without
changing anything, and asked for a printout. Instead of a printout, I
got a handful of numbers hand written down - not the whole set, for
which they charged me what they quoted to have all the numbers printed
out. I did that at two other places. The numbers consistently showed
problems in my alignment which the shop that did the alignment did not
tell me about.

I repeated the experiment - maybe the first shop messed up in doing the
alignment - anyone can have a bad day. I went to another place and paid
for another alignment, then repeated my "printout" experiment with more
shops. Again - no printout that I was promised, problem with the
numbers, and nary a word said by the aligment place about the problem,
its cause, and how to fix it.

I learned many things about shops where I live from that investment:
Most alignment shops take your money and don't provide a legitimate
service for troubleshooting problems. Most alignment shops are
dishonest (tell you they will give you a printout, but *after* they're
done, inform you that there printer hasn't worked in years, and charge
you the same amount for a few of the many numbers you asked for. If you
want to troubleshoot a problem, you *must* have printouts to really see
what's going on, and the fixes can be made for a fraction of the cost
that a shop will charge you if you get them involved in the analysis and
solution (if you can trust what they're telling you - but without
printouts, you're opening yourself up to being taken to the cleaners on
a wild goose chase, and if you're lucky, getting the problem solved - I
never could until I took the problem into my own hands - and the start
of that was getting complete printouts).

Just one of the things I discovered with my experiment was that one of
the toe adjuster sleeves was screwed up, and was really hard to adjust.
I found that the alignment shops, instead of telling you that the sleeve
needs to be replaced, will just fudge the alignment - get it close - and
not say a word. So you're not only not getting what you paid for,
you're getting double screwed because your tires are wearing out early.
Without a prinout, you're fair game. They have no incentive to give you
long tire life, especially since you didn't buy the tires there. Their
expreience teaches them that most of the public is too ignorant of tires
and tire alignments to ever catch on. If you're the questioning type,
they just as soon that you move on to the next shop so they can just do
their alignments and tire replacement work at a very profitable pace and
not be interrupted with annoying problems.

Any more, I wouldn't deal with a tire place that wouldn't give me
complete printouts than I would deal with a doctor who wouldn't give me
the scoop on what's going on with a mediacl problem or that I would hand
over all my records to an accountant and have him file everything
without my first understanding something about how the bottom line came
to be (I know an honest doctor who did hard time because he did that -
the IRS told him they were going to make an example of him even though
they knew that the real problem was with the accounting firm).

Sorry - I just don't trust alingment shops to be honest with me unless
they know I'm also looking at the numbers. I won't deal with one who
won't provide them. I can't afford not to operate that way.

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with "x")

 

[Neil Nelson]

That's great for you, but where I live, if you have your alignment done
with that philosophy, you're likely to end up with strange tire wear
problems and no leverage whatsoever to fight utter b.s. to try to get a
warranty adjustment and repeat the cycle on the next set of tires.

[snip]

So, you think that .02 degrees of total toe is going to cause
"strange tire wear?"
Do you realize that this is completely with-in the run out
tolerance for the alignment machine, not to mention the wheels
and tires?
Do you realize that the alignment cameras could be dis-mounted,
re-mounted, calibrated and the toe reading taken again and the
total toe could easily then be well with-in specification?
Do you realize that .02 degrees of toe when translated into
inches at the specified distance from center equals the width of
a line drawn with a #2 lead pencil?
Do you think it's possible that after 5 years, the springs on
this vehicle have sagged enough that once the vehicle is raised
back to normal ride height, the total toe reading -is- back in
specification?
Did you look at the actual "thrust" angle, do you know how close
to absolutely perfect it is?

Are you familiar with the term used in the industry called
"chasing the machine?" AKA aligning for the sake of the alignment
machine.

I see nothing in those alignment readings that would cause
"strange tire wear" in fact, I see a very well performed
alignment with consideration towards the vehicle tracking
straight and compensation for road crown.
But what the hell do I know, I first started doing front end
alignments for pay in 1971.

 

[Daniel J. Stern]

That's great for you, but where I live, if you have your alignment done
with that philosophy, you're likely to end up with strange tire wear
problems and no leverage whatsoever to fight utter b.s. to try to get a
warranty adjustment and repeat the cycle on the next set of tires.

Sounds as if you haven't found a good alignment shop. Keep looking.

Their
expreience teaches them that most of the public is too ignorant of tires
and tire alignments to ever catch on.

I'm betting their experience also teaches them that giving printouts costs
them lots of time and money on customers who scream "This says it's at
2.003! The spec is 1 to 3, and I the shop manual says it should be right
in the middle, and that's 2.000, not 2.003! Fix it right or gimme my money
back!".

Any more, I wouldn't deal with a tire place that wouldn't give me
complete printouts

Suit yourself. Printouts can be easily made to say whatever one wants them
to say, and that's even before they're interpreted (or misinterpreted, as
the case often is).

Sorry - I just don't trust alingment shops to be honest with me unless
they know I'm also looking at the numbers.

Here y'go, Mistah Putney, here's some numbiz for yiz. You want some
more? Here, here's anudda setta numbiz. Hey, let us know if ya want a
lotta numbiz all at once so's we have time to prinnem out for yiz!

DS

 

[Bill Putney]

Sounds as if you haven't found a good alignment shop. Keep looking.

You don't know this area - there aren't but so many, and most have
little or no incentive to give better service and do a better job - the
customers wouldn't notice if service improved - that's one of the
problems. These are shops that would still be using impact wrenches at
full blast if the public had not gotten somewhat educated over the years
and the state didn't mandate that torque sticks be used for
re-installing wheels during state inspections. These are shops that you
have to remind every time you go in not to use clip-on weights on alloy
wheels because 99% of their customers wouldn't know the difference. Got
the picture?

I'm betting their experience also teaches them that giving printouts costs
them lots of time and money on customers who scream "This says it's at
2.003! The spec is 1 to 3, and I the shop manual says it should be right
in the middle, and that's 2.000, not 2.003! Fix it right or gimme my money
back!".

That would be an unreasonable customer, easily proven by the fact that
the manual says no such thing. The shop would indeed be justified in
turning such a customer away for future business and would be no worse
off for doing so. You're being ridiculous. What is wrong with
providing printouts on request? I'm not saying give them out to confuse
customers who don't ask for them and wouldn't know how to read them.
Heck - I'd pay extra for the printouts if that's what it took.

Suit yourself. Printouts can be easily made to say whatever one wants them
to say, and that's even before they're interpreted (or misinterpreted, as
the case often is).

True - but that requires blatant dishonesty. Medical records can be
made to say anything one wants them to say, therefore, never look at
your medical records. Bank records could be falsified, therefore, never
compare your checkbook with the bank statement. I guess we shouldn't
ask our doctors questions either - might make them mad, or they will
refuse to see us anymore. Dan - it's the same concept as audits.
People will go over the line in stretching things if they know they
can't be or aren't being checked up on. Put in a simple audit, and most
people will comply (unless the auditors are also corrupt, i.e.,
Enron/Gobal Corssing/Arthur Andreson, etc.) with rules and
expectations. Simply by my asking for a printout helps keep them honest
- they're less likely to say to themselves "That toe sleeve is a little
hard to get to, and it's almost lunch time - he'll never notice that
it's a little out - heck a little extra tire wear won't be noticed,
might make an earlier sale that way too - yeah - that's the ticket!"

Here y'go, Mistah Putney, here's some numbiz for yiz. You want some
more? Here, here's anudda setta numbiz. Hey, let us know if ya want a
lotta numbiz all at once so's we have time to prinnem out for yiz!

And of course I'd be too stupid not be taken by that guy. Funny thing -
I was getting nowhere and was totally blind before I started getting
printouts. Once I started getting printouts, things started making
sense, and I was able to eliminate three (all) problems on my car's
alignment and tire wear. It went from annoying and frustrating to a
dream to drive. It's amazing how the numbers are more centered and no
longer just on the edge or slightly over because they know I'm looking
at them. And when a tire gives a problem, I'm no longer presented with
surprise alignment numbers that prove that that tire wore funny because
my car has a problem that I was not previously aware of that they failed
to tell me about (and of course they would tell me that everything was
fine back then, and I would have to take their word for it), and
therefore the tire warranty is void.

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with "x")

 

[Art]

I just got a nice printout from an alignment shop. Ranges are clear shown
and before and after numbers are shown in color. Anything out of spec
prints in red, stuff in spec prints in green. Highly unlikely anyone will
argue with that printout.

 

[Ted Mittelstaedt]

True - but that requires blatant dishonesty.

Let me say one thing about forgeries like this. I too (although I never
asked for
them) have got printouts from the last couple alignments. The shops that I
have
taken the vehicle to all seem to have alignment benches that are
computerized
up the wazoo, and the alignment machine itself creates the printout, not
some
PC running MS Word or other. In this scenario I suspect it would take more
work for the person at the shop to write up a forgery than to just do the
alignment properly. The computerized up the wazoo alignment benches they
are using are supposed to make the alignment easy and quick to do.

Ted

 

[Neil Nelson]

The computerized up the wazoo alignment benches they
are using are supposed to make the alignment easy and quick to do.

Ted

Since a human being still has to turn the nuts and bolts and
fight the rust, they are nothing of the sort.

 

[Bill Putney]

That's great for you, but where I live, if you have your alignment done
with that philosophy, you're likely to end up with strange tire wear
problems and no leverage whatsoever to fight utter b.s. to try to get a
warranty adjustment and repeat the cycle on the next set of tires.

[snip]

So, you think that .02 degrees of total toe is going to cause
"strange tire wear?"

I did not say, think, or imply that.

Do you realize that this is completely with-in the run out
tolerance for the alignment machine, not to mention the wheels
and tires?
Do you realize that the alignment cameras could be dis-mounted,
re-mounted, calibrated and the toe reading taken again and the
total toe could easily then be well with-in specification?
Do you realize that .02 degrees of toe when translated into
inches at the specified distance from center equals the width of
a line drawn with a #2 lead pencil?
Do you think it's possible that after 5 years, the springs on
this vehicle have sagged enough that once the vehicle is raised
back to normal ride height, the total toe reading -is- back in
specification?
Did you look at the actual "thrust" angle, do you know how close
to absolutely perfect it is?

Are you familiar with the term used in the industry called
"chasing the machine?" AKA aligning for the sake of the alignment
machine.

I see nothing in those alignment readings that would cause
"strange tire wear" in fact, I see a very well performed
alignment with consideration towards the vehicle tracking
straight and compensation for road crown.
But what the hell do I know, I first started doing front end
alignments for pay in 1971.

Neil - My comments were not about the specific numbers posted by the
OP. I said *nothing* to indicate that 0.02 out was a real problem
(however, I would have adjusted it as a matter of principle - see
below). My comments were about conducting business with an alignment
shop in general. If a person understands what the numbers mean, then
they should facilitate a dialogue and the solution of real problems.

I was responding to the implication that the consumer should be kept
ignorant of information on his own property that he has paid for. I
consider it information that I paid for just like I consider my medical
X-rays something that I have a right to see (and take to anohter doctor
if I choose). If a particular customer is ignorant of their meaning and
still wants to argue out of ignorance, then that is a whole other issue
and is not justification for refusing to show all other customers what
their own measurements are.

Now - the other issue that you, not I, brought up has to do with what's
called gage R&R ("repeatability" and "reproducibility") and a philosophy
of tolerancing and correction. When tolerances are given (on vehicle
alignment or any other measurement), they should take into account that
there is some non-repeatibility in any measurement. The resulting
philosophy should be that you have to draw the line somewhere of when to
fix and when to leave as is.

Whereas you, due to measurement uncertainty, are willing to give the
benefit of the doubt in favor of the technician not having to make the
adjustment, why shouldn't someone be able, due to the same uncertainty,
to argue the opposite, i.e., if it's just within the spec. you must
adjust it beacuse in reality it could be further out than the machine
says. Truth is, both would be wrong within a reasonable and honest
philosophy in the real world. Because of the uncertainty, if the
measurement shows it out, then adjust it to within the specified range.
A businessman should consider it delivering what the customer is paying
for - not an unjust drain on his profitability.

My whole point is that, human nature unfortunately being what it is,
people that would ordinarily be honest when they know that what they are
doing is being looked at will strangely, in their own minds and possibly
publicly rationalize dishonest behavior if the truth is kept in
darkness. It applies to politicians, doctors, husbands, wives, and
alignment technicians. One only has to read the newspapers and live
life a few years to discover this general truth. Do you think Bill
Clinton would have publicly declared "I did not have sex with that
woman" if he had known that a dress with his DNA on it was in
existence? Same thing.

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with "x")

 

[Neil Nelson]

So, you think that .02 degrees of total toe is going to cause
"strange tire wear?"

I did not say, think, or imply that.[/QUOTE]

Uh...okay... So, you just saw this as your once in a lifetime
opportunity to go on a rant about alignment print-outs and
inoperative printers on alignment machines.

Neil - My comments were not about the specific numbers posted by the
OP.

I understand that.

I said *nothing* to indicate that 0.02 out was a real problem
(however, I would have adjusted it as a matter of principle - see
below).

Whoa... what happened to "I did not say, think, or imply that."
Seems to be at the forefront in your thinking whether you're
willing to admit it or not.
You either trust the people you deal with as Daniel does or you
have your suspicions which necessitate you scrutinizing a print
out.

My comments were about conducting business with an alignment
shop in general. If a person understands what the numbers mean, then
they should facilitate a dialogue and the solution of real problems.

You previously made mention that many times, the printer on the
alignment machine didn't work and instead, you were handed hand
written figures. Do you know why the printers didn't work?
It's because they aren't used, they aren't used because 99.999%
of the customers get glassy eyed as soon as even the remotest of
technical "dialogue" is initiated. I've seen it thousands of
times, and having sold alignment equipment for a living, can tell
you that a majority of shops could care less whether a machine
comes with a printer.

I was responding to the implication that the consumer should be kept
ignorant of information on his own property that he has paid for.

Bill, the majority of consumers choose to be kept ignorant. Were
that not the case, GM would have gone bankrupt decades ago.

I consider it information that I paid for just like I consider my medical
X-rays something that I have a right to see (and take to anohter doctor
if I choose).

You paid for a -service- when you requested an alignment on your
vehicle.

If a particular customer is ignorant of their meaning and
still wants to argue out of ignorance, then that is a whole other issue
and is not justification for refusing to show all other customers what
their own measurements are.

It's justification if it is shop policy. There (to my knowlwdge)
is no law requiring that print outs be provided after a service
is performed as there is in many states requiring (for instance)
that old parts be returned to the customer for inspection.

Now - the other issue that you, not I, brought up has to do with what's
called gage R&R ("repeatability" and "reproducibility") and a philosophy
of tolerancing and correction. When tolerances are given (on vehicle
alignment or any other measurement), they should take into account that
there is some non-repeatibility in any measurement. The resulting
philosophy should be that you have to draw the line somewhere of when to
fix and when to leave as is.
Whereas you, due to measurement uncertainty, are willing to give the
benefit of the doubt in favor of the technician not having to make the
adjustment, why shouldn't someone be able, due to the same uncertainty,
to argue the opposite, i.e., if it's just within the spec. you must
adjust it beacuse in reality it could be further out than the machine
says.

because, as you said above; "The resulting philosophy should be
that you have to draw the line somewhere of when to fix and when
to leave as is."

Truth is, both would be wrong within a reasonable and honest
philosophy in the real world. Because of the uncertainty, if the
measurement shows it out, then adjust it to within the specified range.
A businessman should consider it delivering what the customer is paying
for - not an unjust drain on his profitability.

There is no point in doing something when the result is zero gain.

My whole point is that, human nature unfortunately being what it is,
people that would ordinarily be honest when they know that what they are
doing is being looked at will strangely, in their own minds and possibly
publicly rationalize dishonest behavior if the truth is kept in
darkness.

That truth in this case being two one hundredths of a degree.

Gee Bill, what if a bolt had snapped when the mechanic attempted
to adjust that .02 degree inaccuracy, do the (now) extra charges
involved in repairing that broken bolt justify the end result?
They absolutely do not.
If there's a leson in human nature to be learned here, it's that
Daniel is better at picking an alignment shop than you are, and
that he feels secure enough in his choice that not having a print
out as part of the service he requests is not an issue.

It applies to politicians, doctors, husbands, wives, and
alignment technicians. One only has to read the newspapers and live
life a few years to discover this general truth.

I'm 50 years old and well aware. Aware that going after those
two places to the right of the decimal point can and often do
kick your ass in the worst possible way.

Do you think Bill
Clinton would have publicly declared "I did not have sex with that
woman" if he had known that a dress with his DNA on it was in
existence?

Yeah, he probably would have. The attention span of the typical
american is about two seconds longer than that of a Goldfish, re:
the re-election of Marion Barry as mayor of Washington D.C.

Same thing.

Hardly.

 

[Bill Putney]

I did not say, think, or imply that.

Uh...okay... So, you just saw this as your once in a lifetime
opportunity to go on a rant about alignment print-outs and
inoperative printers on alignment machines.[/QUOTE]

No - I have gone on this same rant several times before because before I
took the problem into my own hands I was just pouring money down the
drain on tires and alignments trying to solve particular wear and
handling problems I was having. When I started looking at the numbers
myself and taking action to correct the specific problems, the problems
went way - not mysteriously, but due to proper diagnosis and correction,
and at a fraction of the cost for parts that the shops would have
charged me. I don't understand the complaint about that at all.

I happen to believe an educated consumer is better than one that is not
in many areas, including in getting wheel alignments.

I understand that.

Apparently you didn't because here's what you posted:
"Do you realize that this is completely with-in the run out tolerance
for the alignment machine, not to mention the wheels and tires? Do you
realize that the alignment cameras could be dis-mounted, re-mounted,
calibrated and the toe reading taken again and the total toe could
easily then be well with-in specification? Do you realize that .02
degrees of toe when translated into inches at the specified distance
from center equals the width of a line drawn with a #2 lead pencil?"

You want to tell me again that you understood that I wasn't discussing
the 0.02 per-se?

Whoa... what happened to "I did not say, think, or imply that."

Only after you focused on the 0.02 in context (actually out of context)
of my post. Did I think being 0.02 out would cause the tread to wear
1/4" in 5000 miles? No. Did I think it should be brought back into
spec.? Yes for the reasons I stated in my later post. We both agree on
the uncertainty of the measurement. You seem to want to always push the
uncertainty towards it actually being in spec. I say that is b.s.

Seems to be at the forefront in your thinking whether you're
willing to admit it or not.

Only after you linked it to my post that had nothing to do with it. I
was discussing the general suggestion of getting printouts. You are
trying to say that I was arguing the 0.02 in that post, which I was not.

You either trust the people you deal with as Daniel does or you
have your suspicions which necessitate you scrutinizing a print
out.

Either you trust your doctor and never look at the results of the test
that he just ran that says you need a $200k risky operation, or you
don't. Either you trust your accountant, in which case you never look
at what he turned into the IRS or you don't. I know a doctor who did
hard time because of that. And I know a person (me) who was getting
nowhere with alignment shops who, when I was trying to troubleshoot and
fix an actual problem, took my money and thought their only
responsibility was to bring it into spec. **only** if they could with
almost zero effort, and if they couldn't, then obviously what the
customer doesn't know won't hurt him.

You previously made mention that many times, the printer on the
alignment machine didn't work and instead, you were handed hand
written figures. Do you know why the printers didn't work?
It's because they aren't used, they aren't used because 99.999%
of the customers get glassy eyed as soon as even the remotest of
technical "dialogue" is initiated.

And therefore one size fits all and I should not be allowed to see my
numbers. B***SH**.

I've seen it thousands of
times, and having sold alignment equipment for a living, can tell
you that a majority of shops could care less whether a machine
comes with a printer.

I refuse to go to an alignment shop that will not or cannot give me a
printout. I also refuse to go to doctors who will not let me see my
xrays (they have to by law now).

Bill, the majority of consumers choose to be kept ignorant. Were
that not the case, GM would have gone bankrupt decades ago.

OK. Nothing to do with me or this discussion, but I appreciate the
opportunity to get a dig at GM in.

If a customer doesn't ask for printouts, then don't give them to them.
If I ask for them, and you won't, I won't do business with you becasue
I'm trying to fix a problem.

You paid for a -service- when you requested an alignment on your
vehicle.

OK - that's the business owner's choice. I exercise my right to go
somewhere else and find a shop that will give me printouts. I have even
offered to pay extra for them. No one has ever charged me extra for
them - they just provide them or they don't as part of the service if I
ask for them.

Tire shops would tell you not too many years ago that their service does
not include hand torqueing the lug nuts - that takes too much time. Now
that some consumers are educated about that (and some state laws
actually require it for inspections), no tire shop would think of
telling a customer that - even though 80+% of customers would not know
or care one way or the other.

It's justification if it is shop policy.

That's fine. I'll go somewhere else. Free market. It's probably
doubtful that enough of the public will ever be educated enough to make
a difference in that business' bottom line if they refuse to go to them
for that reason, but the same could have been said a few years ago about
hand-torqueing lug nuts. Today, a shop owner would be nuts (and quickly
out of business) if he refused to properly torque lug nuts.

There (to my knowlwdge)
is no law requiring that print outs be provided after a service...

That is correct. Laws and ethics are two different things. There used
to not be laws that doctors had to give you copies of your x-rays or
medical records if you asked for them, but there are now (they can
charge for the costs of copying, but they can't refuse to otherwise give
them to you). Before those laws, it would only be considered
unethical. Now it's patently illegal. Ethics and legality - they are
not always the same. And funny thing - before the law, probably a
number of people would not necessarily have considered a doctor
unethical if he didn't give you your medical records on demand. Since
the law, now everyone thinks it would be enethical (as well as
illegal). If a law were passed that said that alignment shops had to
give you a printout (not that such a law would or should ever be
passed), you'd be surprised at how many people would consider it then to
be unethical not to.

is performed as there is in many states requiring (for instance)
that old parts be returned to the customer for inspection.

Like I say - laws and ethics are not always related. But the free
choice of the consumer as to who he will do business with are always in
effect (unless all such businesses in the area are corrupt, then the
only choice is to DIY - which I do whenever possible).

Again, the number of people who consider it unethical not to give the
old parts back would go up exponentially if such a law were passed, and
people couldn't imagine a world in which it wasn't the law or considered
unethical.

because, as you said above; "The resulting philosophy should be
that you have to draw the line somewhere of when to fix and when
to leave as is."

Yes - and that line should be the spec. compared to the measurement that
was taken. Why would a tech want to leave an adjustment on the extreme
edge of the tolerance band anyway, other than being lazy and/or greedy?
That's crappy customer service, and in a very competitive market, if the
light of day were to ever shine on the problem (which it has not) would
not be tolerated.

I've always thought that a place that sells tires also doing alignments
is a conflict of interest. You can't tell me that leaving it at the
edge of spec. won't give marignally worse wear than more centered (I
didn't say "exactly" centered - thought I'd handle that before someone
claimed that I did).

There is no point in doing something when the result is zero gain.

What you mean is "What the customer doesn't know won't hurt him even if
it does hurt him but he's too stupid to know it." Yes I'm very familiar
with that business philosophy. It pervades the automotive manufacturing
and service market, and it is sickening. The euphemism for the
philosophy is "no value added" - which actually has a legitmate and good
meaning too, but it has been perverted in the modern business climate.

Truth is tolerances have meaning, and in spite of the uncertainty at the
edge, you either decide to go by the spec. or you don't. And you might
decide to go the extra mile for the customer and bring a very marginal
reading well into spec.

Unreasonable would be leaving it like that. Unreasonable would also be
insisting on getting it to within a nat's ass of centered. Reasonable
is bringing it definitely within the tolerance band.

That truth in this case being two one hundredths of a degree.

That's not my fault. It's reality. So what.

Gee Bill, what if a bolt had snapped when the mechanic attempted
to adjust that .02 degree inaccuracy, do the (now) extra charges
involved in repairing that broken bolt justify the end result?

And you could die from anesthesia during an operation. The risk you
take. If that bolt was that bad, it should be replaced anyway, so doing
the right thing can be a preventative too. Your philosophy is leave it
for the next guy to break and fix. Yep - modern business at its best.

Also, if someone were to adjust that parameter, they wouldn't just move
it 0.04 so that it was barely in spec. by the numbers. They would at
least make some attempt to center it. That would be reasonable. The
difference would show up in lower tire wear. The customer may not know
it, but you would know that you did your job right (I know - I'm old
fashioned - no one believes this anymore).

They absolutely do not.
If there's a leson in human nature to be learned here, it's that
Daniel is better at picking an alignment shop than you are, ...

I already explained that the status quo and smarts of the consumer in
alignment shops in this area is pretty low. I did not create that
situation. That's why I have to take the, apparently to you, absolutely
insane and unreasonable step of getting printouts. Oh the horror!!
What's next? Looking at my tax return before the accountant sends it in
and asking a question if I don't understand something!?

...and
that he feels secure enough in his choice that not having a print
out as part of the service he requests is not an issue.

I already told him that was good for him. I don't have that luxury in
the area I'm in. Apparently you and Daniel would have had me spend
money for nought and replace tires left and right rather than do the
unspeakable and take the problem into my own hands.

Just look at the b*** sh** that shops and dealers put people on this
forum thru when they have a simple alignment problem.

I'm 50 years old and well aware.

But you apparently exclude alignment technicians and shop owners from
that list, eh?

Aware that going after those
two places to the right of the decimal point can and often do
kick your ass in the worst possible way.

Yes - we wouldn't want to give the customer a decent alignment that they
paid us to do, now would we. Making it slightly better than the
specs.? There's no value added in that! (and again, I'm not talking
about moving it 0.04 just to get the numbers, nor am I saying not giving
up until its exactly centered - we both know there's no such thing as
zero tolerance, but lets at least be reasonable)

Yeah, he probably would have. The attention span of the typical
american is about two seconds longer than that of a Goldfish, re:
the re-election of Marion Barry as mayor of Washington D.C.

Can't argue with you there.

Same thing.

Hardly.

The principle is the same. People will do a lot better job when they
know the results will be audited. Fact of life. Human nature.

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with "x")

 

[Neil Nelson]

Uh...okay... So, you just saw this as your once in a lifetime
opportunity to go on a rant about alignment print-outs and
inoperative printers on alignment machines.

No - I have gone on this same rant several times before[/QUOTE]

And you felt we needed to see it again, because?

because before I
took the problem into my own hands I was just pouring money down the
drain on tires and alignments trying to solve particular wear and
handling problems I was having. When I started looking at the numbers
myself and taking action to correct the specific problems, the problems
went way - not mysteriously, but due to proper diagnosis and correction,
and at a fraction of the cost for parts that the shops would have
charged me.

As said previously, you're just bad at finding a competent shop.
That is hardly reason to dismiss Dan's comments.

I don't understand the complaint about that at all.

Nor do I (see above).

I happen to believe an educated consumer is better than one that is not
in many areas, including in getting wheel alignments.

As do I. But your beliefs and my beliefs fall into the minority.

Apparently you didn't because here's what you posted:
"Do you realize that this is completely with-in the run out tolerance
for the alignment machine, not to mention the wheels and tires? Do you
realize that the alignment cameras could be dis-mounted, re-mounted,
calibrated and the toe reading taken again and the total toe could
easily then be well with-in specification? Do you realize that .02
degrees of toe when translated into inches at the specified distance
from center equals the width of a line drawn with a #2 lead pencil?"

You want to tell me again that you understood that I wasn't discussing
the 0.02 per-se?

Taken in the context of what you replied to Dan about who was
commenting on what I had said about machines that read two places
to the right of the decimal, it appears that you were.
IOWs, I -do- understand that you weren't making a comment towards
the OPs .02 toe reading, but you -were- commenting WRT the
un-needed accuracy of the machine and whether or not that level
of precision is suitable for public consumption.

Only after you focused on the 0.02 in context (actually out of context)
of my post. Did I think being 0.02 out would cause the tread to wear
1/4" in 5000 miles? No. Did I think it should be brought back into
spec.? Yes for the reasons I stated in my later post. We both agree on
the uncertainty of the measurement. You seem to want to always push the
uncertainty towards it actually being in spec. I say that is b.s.

I'm not pushing anything other than the fact that pretty numbers
on a sheet of paper don't mean diddly-squat. They only apply to
that exact time and situation, something that is unlikely to be
repeated once the vehicle is back down on the ground and off the
rack (or stands).

Only after you linked it to my post that had nothing to do with it. I
was discussing the general suggestion of getting printouts. You are
trying to say that I was arguing the 0.02 in that post, which I was not.

No, the whole thing is about how such print-outs (when supplied)
can and are mis-used and mis-understood by the layman.
You just happened to interject your -own- personal bad luck
experiences into it.

Either you trust your doctor and never look at the results of the test
that he just ran that says you need a $200k risky operation, or you
don't.

God, I hope Daniel is laughing as hard as I am... seeing as I
-have- been in the position to need a $200,000 operation and no,
there is no way in hell I was going to second guess what the
doctor was recommending, and -that- is just considering my left
leg, I can add another $200,000 or so for two heart attacks, quad
by-pass, angioplasty and stents put into my Iliac arteries.

Either you trust your accountant, in which case you never look
at what he turned into the IRS or you don't.

I have to sign anything before it goes to the IRS, so I would
have looked at it, no?

I know a doctor who did
hard time because of that.

Probably because he didn't want to be bothered by a bunch of
confusing numbers as I've previously described IRT alignment
print outs and the people who go glassy eyed when shown them.

And I know a person (me) who was getting
nowhere with alignment shops who, when I was trying to troubleshoot and
fix an actual problem, took my money and thought their only
responsibility was to bring it into spec. **only** if they could with
almost zero effort, and if they couldn't, then obviously what the
customer doesn't know won't hurt him.

Whole seperate issue, lazy, slothy mechanics.

And therefore one size fits all and I should not be allowed to see my
numbers. B***SH**.

Who said anything about -you- not being able to see your numbers.
Plunk down $40K, you can see all the numbers you want, this is
the only solution to encountering a shop such as Daniel described.

On the other hand, I suppose you also stand and watch over the
butcher's shoulder to make certain no cow feces makes its way
into your Rib Eye while he's cutting it, and then you stand out
in the middle of the bean field to make certain that the migrant
workers don't piss all over your vegatables.

Exactly how deep does this paranoia of yours run?

I refuse to go to an alignment shop that will not or cannot give me a
printout.

Free country and all that. Works both ways though.

I also refuse to go to doctors who will not let me see my
xrays (they have to by law now).

Yes, "by law."
No one said that the customer should be kept ignorant, one person
commented about the rediculousness of measurements taken to
absurd levels, another commented that the best alignment shop
he's found doesn't provide print outs probably because of the
rediculous/absurd level that those print outs are formatted in.

OK. Nothing to do with me or this discussion, but I appreciate the
opportunity to get a dig at GM in.

Ya see, I'm not really a bad guy after all. ;-)

If a customer doesn't ask for printouts, then don't give them to them.
If I ask for them, and you won't, I won't do business with you becasue
I'm trying to fix a problem.

Ah, but only if it were to stop there. See, this is just like
the "why do they charge me XX dollars to retrieve the trouble
codes when the check engine light is on."
They do it as much because it usually devolves into a; "what's
that, what does it do, why is it there, how does it work, it's a
conspiracy between the government and the automakers and the
mechanics, etc. etc. etc." big BIG waste of time for the person
who's only trying to eek out a living.

I'd be curious to know, during your alignment quest, what
percentage of the work was going to be done by the shop and what
percentage was going to be done by you?

OK - that's the business owner's choice. I exercise my right to go
somewhere else and find a shop that will give me printouts.

Exactly. And IIRC, Dan Sterns post made no mention that -you-
should accept the conditions that he agrees to when he seeks an
alignment on a vehicle.

I have even
offered to pay extra for them. No one has ever charged me extra for
them - they just provide them or they don't as part of the service if I
ask for them.


Tire shops would tell you not too many years ago that their service does
not include hand torqueing the lug nuts - that takes too much time. Now
that some consumers are educated about that (and some state laws
actually require it for inspections), no tire shop would think of
telling a customer that - even though 80+% of customers would not know
or care one way or the other.

Again, these comments seem to be directed more towards lazy
mechanics than the discussion at hand.

That's fine. I'll go somewhere else. Free market. It's probably
doubtful that enough of the public will ever be educated enough to make
a difference in that business' bottom line if they refuse to go to them
for that reason, but the same could have been said a few years ago about
hand-torqueing lug nuts. Today, a shop owner would be nuts (and quickly
out of business) if he refused to properly torque lug nuts.

Depends on your definition of "properly torqued lug nuts."
Most shops are relying on 'Torque Sticks' which does not fall
with-in my definition of proper, so the same bad-bad is happening
regardless but the shop now has a 'procedure' that they can cite.

That is correct. Laws and ethics are two different things.

Yes, and strangely enough, they more often than not appear to be
at odds with each other.

There used
to not be laws that doctors had to give you copies of your x-rays or
medical records if you asked for them, but there are now (they can
charge for the costs of copying, but they can't refuse to otherwise give
them to you). Before those laws, it would only be considered
unethical. Now it's patently illegal. Ethics and legality - they are
not always the same. And funny thing - before the law, probably a
number of people would not necessarily have considered a doctor
unethical if he didn't give you your medical records on demand. Since
the law, now everyone thinks it would be enethical (as well as
illegal). If a law were passed that said that alignment shops had to
give you a printout (not that such a law would or should ever be
passed), you'd be surprised at how many people would consider it then to
be unethical not to.


Like I say - laws and ethics are not always related. But the free
choice of the consumer as to who he will do business with are always in
effect (unless all such businesses in the area are corrupt, then the
only choice is to DIY - which I do whenever possible).

Quite possibly the root of the problem.

Again, the number of people who consider it unethical not to give the
old parts back would go up exponentially if such a law were passed, and
people couldn't imagine a world in which it wasn't the law or considered
unethical.
M'kay.....


Yes - and that line should be the spec. compared to the measurement that
was taken. Why would a tech want to leave an adjustment on the extreme
edge of the tolerance band anyway, other than being lazy and/or greedy?

Because it very well may be in the interest of the car going down
the road straight and not pulling or following the crown in the
road.

That's crappy customer service,

Sorry Bill, but you're second guessing.

and in a very competitive market, if the
light of day were to ever shine on the problem (which it has not) would
not be tolerated.

See, that is the exact problem that solicited my and Dan Sterns
comments. Again, I ask you, how many alignments have you done
over how many years?

I've always thought that a place that sells tires also doing alignments
is a conflict of interest. You can't tell me that leaving it at the
edge of spec. won't give marignally worse wear than more centered (I
didn't say "exactly" centered - thought I'd handle that before someone
claimed that I did).

You appear to be under the mistaken notion that adjusting to some
magic number within the specifications will yield a vehicle that
tracks perfectly straight and true regardless of which lane of
the interstate the vehicle is in.
For all you or I know, the OPs vehicle -was- set within specs,
test driven and -then- re-adjusted to the .02 out of spec number
to correct a condition that would have prompted the customer (the
OP) to return and demand a remedy. IOWs, you either didn't
really read my earlier post, or it went right over your head.

What you mean is "What the customer doesn't know won't hurt him even if
it does hurt him but he's too stupid to know it."

No, that is not what I mean.

Yes I'm very familiar
with that business philosophy. It pervades the automotive manufacturing
and service market, and it is sickening. The euphemism for the
philosophy is "no value added" - which actually has a legitmate and good
meaning too, but it has been perverted in the modern business climate.

You are apparently a very frustrated bitter person.

Truth is tolerances have meaning, and in spite of the uncertainty at the
edge, you either decide to go by the spec. or you don't. And you might
decide to go the extra mile for the customer and bring a very marginal
reading well into spec.

You know so little about aligning a vehicle. That is the problem.

Unreasonable would be leaving it like that. Unreasonable would also be
insisting on getting it to within a nat's ass of centered. Reasonable
is bringing it definitely within the tolerance band.

But "definitely within the tolerance band" is no assurance that
the vehicle will perform up to the expectations of the customer
and what he percieves to be value for his money.
It isn't target practice, hitting some obscure bulls-eye doesn't
guarantee a win. Again, that setting could for all we know have
been purposely done to effect a better handling vehicle, and
since .02 degrees isn't going to cause accelerated tire wear,
provided the OP with excellent value.

That's not my fault. It's reality. So what.

So what, exactly.

And you could die from anesthesia during an operation. The risk you
take. If that bolt was that bad, it should be replaced anyway,

Since when does a bolt breaking upon removal equal a bolt that
needs replacement? <good grief>
What, do you take your car apart every weekend just so you can
apply never seize to every fastener?

so doing
the right thing can be a preventative too. Your philosophy is leave it
for the next guy to break and fix. Yep - modern business at its best.

Utter nonsense.

Also, if someone were to adjust that parameter, they wouldn't just move
it 0.04 so that it was barely in spec. by the numbers. They would at
least make some attempt to center it. That would be reasonable. The
difference would show up in lower tire wear. The customer may not know
it, but you would know that you did your job right (I know - I'm old
fashioned - no one believes this anymore).

It's not a question of you being old fashioned, it's your naive
belief that adjusting to some prescribed setting is going to
accomplish something of benefit. That is not necessarily the
case.
Tell you what, go do alignments for 10 or so years and get back
to me with your success stories about how setting to this or
setting to that eliminated any and all come backs.
Aligning a vehicle is 98% instinct and 2% numbers on a screen.

I already explained that the status quo and smarts of the consumer in
alignment shops in this area is pretty low. I did not create that
situation. That's why I have to take the, apparently to you, absolutely
insane and unreasonable step of getting printouts.

It's not about you requesting a print out, it's about what is
typically done when a print out is provided.
See, in your above, even though you lack experience, you second
guess to the point of belittleing the way the OPs vehicle was
adjusted.
But most of all, it not about you Bill.

Oh the horror!!
What's next? Looking at my tax return before the accountant sends it in
and asking a question if I don't understand something!?

Well, ya see Bill, your accountant gets to enjoy something that
the alignment shop usually doesn't. Billing for the time spent
explaining it to you. Big difference in what would be considered
an acceptable charge by him/her versus the alignment shop writing
up a whole nother ticket to cover the time it takes the mechanic
to explain and justify his actions.

I already told him that was good for him. I don't have that luxury in
the area I'm in. Apparently you and Daniel would have had me spend
money for nought and replace tires left and right rather than do the
unspeakable and take the problem into my own hands.

Gee Bill, what is so -different- about your area of the country?

Just look at the b*** sh** that shops and dealers put people on this
forum thru when they have a simple alignment problem.

What makes you think we're getting the whole story when someone
posts about their experience? There is a whole lot of room here
to leave things unsaid.

But you apparently exclude alignment technicians and shop owners from
that list, eh?

Okay, I get it. You are out to change human nature and you're
doing it in alphabetical order.

Yes - we wouldn't want to give the customer a decent alignment that they
paid us to do, now would we.

Who says the OP didn't get a decent alignment?

Making it slightly better than the
specs.?

Who's to say it -isn't- better than specs?
I guess I missed the post where you mentioned that you had
personally driven the vehicle before and after it was worked on.

There's no value added in that! (and again, I'm not talking
about moving it 0.04 just to get the numbers, nor am I saying not giving
up until its exactly centered - we both know there's no such thing as
zero tolerance, but lets at least be reasonable)

Bill, if there is one truth to aligning a vehicle it's that "they
are all different." Those numbers could have very well been
deliberate to effect a good handling vehicle with minimal tire
wear.
We can discuss this further once you have a decade of experience
under your belt.

Can't argue with you there.


The principle is the same. People will do a lot better job when they
know the results will be audited. Fact of life. Human nature.

Sorry, I have no experience in that regard.
Every job I do is audited by my customers, not that that matters
in how I do something.... right is right, wrong is wrong but
alignments are more akin to black magic which is why raw numbers
on a sheet can and often do mislead.

 

[Art]

The alignment shop I just took my car too lets you in the garage and even in
the waiting room has a picture window facing the alignment rack. No chance
of forgeries. You can watch him do the work AND you get a pretty printout
to show the results. Pretty printout does not mean bad alignments. And in
fact if a shop keeps the printer working it probably means they get the
alignment rack checked too once in a while.

 

[Bill Putney]

Neil, I could respond on each point but it would be a waste of my time
since they've pretty much been addressed previously and you seem to be
as blind as a bat.

Although you would one minute deny it and the next minute admit it, you
basically see keeping the customer in the dark and out of the process as
a good thing and a boon to shop profitability. I see knowledge, used
properly, as power, and it should not be viewed as a threat (even in the
apparently wonderful shops where you are, but apparently it is).

Bottom line is that my alignment problems were not being addressed at
all by trying your philosophy of dealing with alignment shops only to
get little or no value for my money, and once I took the problem in my
own hands, I was able to fix the problems. And for that you say that I
am paranoid.

Where I live, for whatever reasons, good or bad, your way does not work,
my way does. Maybe it's different where you and Dan are, and if so,
then hooray for you, but you (Neil) are going to try to blame and insult
me for saying it's different where I am. And BTW, I'm not sure Dan
would buy into all the crap you laid at his feet either, but he can
speak for himself if he is so inclined.

I saw more intelligent discussion from Lloyd in general than I have from
you on this issue.

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with "x")

 

[Neil Nelson]

Neil, I could respond on each point but it would be a waste of my time
since they've pretty much been addressed previously and you seem to be
as blind as a bat.

Blind? hah-hah... I see very clearly. Apparenty that scares or
threatens you. Being someone who had trouble getting a decent
alignment at some point in your life might make you an expert in
your mind, but it doesn't in the real world.

Although you would one minute deny it and the next minute admit it, you
basically see keeping the customer in the dark and out of the process as
a good thing and a boon to shop profitability.

No Bill, I am annoyed by pests who can't or won't pay their way.
Odds are, you responded to some coupon in the newspaper for a
$19.95 alignment, got exactly what you paid for and now every
shop is crooked in your mind.

I see knowledge, used
properly, as power, and it should not be viewed as a threat (even in the
apparently wonderful shops where you are, but apparently it is).

That would be great -if- you actually had knowledge. A print out
isn't knowledge, neither is second guessing or arm-chair
quarterbacking.

Bottom line is that my alignment problems were not being addressed at
all by trying your philosophy of dealing with alignment shops only to
get little or no value for my money, and once I took the problem in my
own hands, I was able to fix the problems. And for that you say that I
am paranoid.

No, I say you are paranoid based upon the tone of your posts and
your attitude in general.

Where I live, for whatever reasons, good or bad, your way does not work,
my way does. Maybe it's different where you and Dan are, and if so,
then hooray for you, but you (Neil) are going to try to blame and insult
me for saying it's different where I am.

"blame, insult?" I asked you specifically what you thought
accounted for the differences you experienced, you chose not to
answer. I guess that means you don't -have- an answer so I can
only surmise that it's 99% sour grapes on your part.

And BTW, I'm not sure Dan
would buy into all the crap you laid at his feet either, but he can
speak for himself if he is so inclined.

All what crap Bill? If Dan was at odds to what I've said, he'll
let me know since nothing has stopped him in the past.

I saw more intelligent discussion from Lloyd in general than I have from
you on this issue.

It's real simple, you want to dictate how someone runs their
business (speaking directly to your objections to Dan's original
post), well that isn't likely to happen until you plunk down the
half million dollars and open a shop of your own.
Your comments about selling tires -and- alignments from the same
facility are positively ludicrous and serve as a prime example of
your delusions.
If your prefer Lloyds company better, why don't you join him,
he's delusional also.
BTW, you'll have to do much better insult wise to even begin to
get close to getting under my skin.