Grand Caravan trans fluid replacement

[caravan]

Just bought the 7176 fluid for a 1996 grand caravan es as well as the
filter and gasket. Q: Where is the drain bolt...if any. I have done
tranny fluid changes on many cars, but all have had a drain bolt. Do I
just start taking off the pan, and let the fluid run all over??? thanks,
as I want to keep up with the preventative maintenance.

 

[Geoff]

Just bought the 7176 fluid for a 1996 grand caravan es as well as the
filter and gasket. Q: Where is the drain bolt...if any.

Back in the factory...still on the drawing board. :-(

I have done
tranny fluid changes on many cars, but all have had a drain bolt.

Really?
Could you provide a sample list of these vehicles?

Do I
just start taking off the pan, and let the fluid run all over???

You can certainly do that. You can find drain pans large enough to catch
most of the fluid. Loosen the forward-most three or four bolts, and remove
the rearmost and side ones. You'll need a large rubber mallet to break the
pan free, since a special RTV compound makes the seal between pan and
transmission. After you've beaten on the side of the pan for awhile, it
will gradually start to break free, dripping as you go. Once the seal lets
go completely, the rest will come out rather suddenly. I recommend you wear
safety goggles, since the resulting splash usually will be headed in your
general direction. Put lots of newspaper down underneath the front of the
van before you get started, since you *will* make a mess.

Personally, I use a drill-motor-driven pump and some tubing to suck most of
the fluid out through the dipstick hole. Then I drop the pan, and the
quantity of remaining fluid is fairly small and easily controlled. You can
get the pump from Sears or Pep Boys, with the tubing and necessary fittings
you're talking about a $25 investment.

Incidently, you don't want to use a rubberized cork gasket on the pan. The
proper seal is a special type of RTV as mentioned above; the correct sealer
is available from your dealer. Alternatively, a special, reusable steel
gasket is also available from the dealership for ~$30 US. It can be reused
up to three times, and it has the added advantage of easy removal and
cleanup on subsequent changes.

--Geoff

 

[caravan]

Thanks for the detailed instructions. I take it that Chrysler forgot to
drill the hole for the trans drain plug when designing. Some cars I have
performed tranny services, whereby they all have drain plugs: my infiniti
i30, previous acura legend and accord, mustangs.

What I'll do now is return the store bought fram filter and gasket(cork
material), and get the metal gasket from the stealer, I mean dealer. I
was also thinking about pulling the cooler line and draining about 4-5
quarts, then pulling the pan off. However, your method of looseing front
bolts and allowing to drain seems quite good. thanks again.

 

[Guest]

Just bought the 7176 fluid for a 1996 grand caravan es as well as the
filter and gasket. Q: Where is the drain bolt...if any. I have done
tranny fluid changes on many cars, but all have had a drain bolt. Do I
just start taking off the pan, and let the fluid run all over??? thanks,
as I want to keep up with the preventative maintenance.

I'm not sure what cars you've had with transmission drain plugs, but
Chrysler has had them more recently than GM or Ford. Anyway, you take
the pan off and let it run out. Just use an old "dish pan" or something
big enough to catch the oil.

 

[Daniel J. Stern]

Thanks for the detailed instructions. I take it that Chrysler forgot to
drill the hole for the trans drain plug when designing.

Chrysler stopped providing trans pan drain plugs after the 1963 model
year, and stopped providing torque converter drain plugs after the 1977
model year.

What I'll do now is return the store bought fram filter and gasket(cork
material)

Good. Fram = danger.

and get the metal gasket from the stealer, I mean dealer.

Good. It's far too easy to contaminate the trans fluid with the RTV
method.

was also thinking about pulling the cooler line and draining about 4-5
quarts, then pulling the pan off.

Wouldn't help, the pan's the lowest point in the system.

-Stern

 

[caravan]

Thanks to all for your invaluable tips. Yeah, it does make sense that
draining the tranny cooler line will do no good, since the residual fluid
will just remain at the bottom of the pan.

Others may refer to my 2nd follow up post on cars I have performed tranny
services on. I was shocked to find no drain plug on the van, as many
other cars have this "feature."

One last Q before I begin the service: What is the recommended procedure
for removing the RTV gasket that is baked on there. Need tips for
removing it from both pan and trans. THANKS.

 

[jdoe]

Do yourself a BIG favor and buy everything frm the dealer. You will have the
proper quality parts. I lost a trans due to a cheap chinese non oem filter.
VERY costly mistake. Never again.
Larry

 

[Geoff]

One last Q before I begin the service: What is the recommended procedure
for removing the RTV gasket that is baked on there. Need tips for
removing it from both pan and trans. THANKS.

Use elbow grease, and plenty of it.

On the pan, which is stamped steel, you can use a regular putty knife with
no worry of harm. If you're lucky, most of the sealer will be stuck to the
pan.

On the transmission, which has an aluminum case, you're asking for trouble
using anything other than a plastic or wood scraper. There are some
gasket/sealer removal products on the market in aerosol form; you might want
to read the can carefully to make sure they're compatible with the intended
use and give one a try. Either way, it's a PITA, which is a big reason why
the steel replacement gasket route is preferred--after you get that RTV crap
cleaned off the first time, you won't have to do it again. It pays for the
$30 investment in the steel gasket in your time.

Incidently, you're going to need a part number for the gasket when you go to
the dealership; they have a tendency to play dumb and pretend they've never
heard of such a thing. The TSB is cut and pasted below.

--Geoff

A/T Pan Gasket - Reusable Design/Installation

NUMBER: 21-05-99 Rev. A

GROUP: Transmission

DATE: Sep. 03, 1999

THIS BULLETIN SUPERSEDES TECHNICAL SERVICE BULLETIN 21-05-99 DATED
MARCH 5, 1999 WHICH SHOULD BE REMOVED FROM YOUR FILES. ALL REVISIONS
ARE HIGHLIGHTED WITH **ASTERISKS** AND INCLUDE ADDITIONAL PARTS AND
MODEL COVERAGE.

SUBJECT:
Reusable Automatic Transmission Oil Pan Gasket

OVERVIEW:
This bulletin announces availability and installation of a reusable
automatic transmission oil pan gasket.

MODELS:
1989 - 1995 (AA) Spirit/Acclaim/LeBaron Sedan
1989 - 1993 (AC) Dynasty/New Yorker/New Yorker Salon
**1989** - 1993 (AG) Daytona
**1989** - 1995 (AJ) LeBaron Coupe/LeBaron Convertible
**1989** - 1994 (AP) Shadow/Shadow Convertible/Sundance
1990 - 1991 (AQ) Chrysler Maserati TC
1989 - 1995 (AS) Town & Country/Caravan/Voyager
1990 - 1993 (AY) Imperial/New Yorker Fifth Avenue
1993 - 1995 (ES) Chrysler Voyager (European Market)
1995 - **2000** (FJ) Sebring/Avenger/Talon
1996 - **2000** (GS) Chrysler Voyager (European Market)
1995 - **2000** (JA) Cirrus/Stratus/Breeze
1996 - **2000** (JX) Sebring Convertible
**1993 - 2000 (LH) Concorde/Intrepid/New Yorker/LHS/Vision/300M**
1996 - **2000** (NS) Town & Country/Caravan/Voyager
**1995 - 2000 (PL) Neon**
**1997 - 2000 (PR) Prowler**

DISCUSSION:

A reusable silicone gasket has been developed to replace the RTV
method of sealing the automatic transmission oil pan. Due to more
frequent Automatic Transmission Fluid (ATF) change intervals and the
possibility of the fluid foaming if it comes in contact with uncured
RTV it is recommended that this gasket be used in all applications.

NOTE: THIS GASKET CAN BE REUSED UP TO THREE (3) TIMES.

PARTS REQUIRED:

**1 05011113AA Gasket, Transmission Oil Pan, 31TH**
**1 05011114AA Gasket, Transmission Oil Pan, 42LE**
1 05011115AA Gasket, Transmission Oil Pan, 41TE/AE

POLICY: INFORMATION ONLY

POLICY: Information Only

 

[Bill Putney]

Do yourself a BIG favor and buy everything frm the dealer. You will have the
proper quality parts. I lost a trans due to a cheap chinese non oem filter.
VERY costly mistake. Never again.

Even then, ya gotta be careful. I saw warnings on this ng a couple of
years ago to be sure that the dealer sells you the right tranny filter -
that there are a couple of different filters that are very similar, but
that won't work on a given application. Sure enough, I ordered my
filter thru a Chrysler dealer, and when I put it on, it looked almost
identical to the original filter, even fit up fairly well *EXCEPT* I
happened to notice that the plastic nipple that connects the filter to
the transmission plumbing was significantly shorter and was about 3/8"
shy of reaching the transmission port. Had I not been warned here and
been paying attention, I could have easily put it all back together. I
don't know if the consequences would have simply been that the tranny
would not have worked until the right filter was put in or if it would
have done some damage. At the very least it would have been a huge
inconvenience to drop the pan (and loose fluid in the process) to remedy
the problem.

Anyway, I went to my local auto parts store and got the right filter.

Moral of the story: Getting the filter from the dealer is not foolproof
either - they can sell you the right part that will fit right up but
that will not work.

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with "x")

 

[Bill Putney]

...Moral of the story: Getting the filter from the dealer is not foolproof
either - they can sell you the right part that will fit right up but
that will not work.

Oops - meant to say "...they can sell you the wrong part that will fit
right up but that will not work".

I guess that shows that "two rights don't make a wrong". 8^)

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with "x")

 

[Bob Shuman]

I removed the RTV with a razor blade scraper (it comes off very easy) and
then "polished" the surfaces with a small wire brush attachment that fits on
my battery powered drill. I then cleaned out the bottom of the pan/magnets
(I used brake parts cleaner) and then re-sealed using the new(er) metal and
silicone gasket obtained from the dealer. I re-torqued to the recommended
FSM settings (these seemed a bit low to me - I don't have the FSM handy, but
IIRC around 40-45 foot pounds and I was concerned it would leak, but I had
no problems at all). Everything sealed up very nicely and I can supposedly
remove the metal/silicone gasket and do this all over again 2-3 more times.
(I change the filter and fluid every 30K miles).

By the way, I used ATF+4 which is now recommended as a replacement for the
cheaper 7176 (ATF+3) fluid and also got the MOPAR filter from the dealer as
well. Since I was doing two vehicles, I bought the filters, gaskets, and 3
gallons of ATF+4 over the web from Galeana Chrysler Jeep Kia in Galeana, SC.
They gave a nice web discount and made ordering from them worthwhile. If
interested, their web site is at: http://www.galeanasc.com/ I've used
them now for a couple years when I can plan the work in advance (like with
these fluid changes).

By the way, on your comment on the lack of a drain plug on Chrysler
transmissions, this makes it a little more messy since you have about 5-6
quarts of fluid in the pan. I was able to loosen the pan bolts and separate
the RTV and then lower the back side to drain as much as I could before
dropping the pan completely. BTW, I find it kind of ironic that my
Mitsubishi 3000GT which uses a Chrysler-made 4 speed transmission provides a
drain plug in both the trans pan and the transaxle as well!

Good luck.

Bob

 

[Bill Putney]

...I re-torqued to the recommended
FSM settings (these seemed a bit low to me - I don't have the FSM handy, but
IIRC around 40-45 foot pounds and I was concerned it would leak, but I had
no problems at all)...

Whoah! No doubt you meant 40-45 in-lbs. (FSM says 40 in-lbs).

...BTW, I find it kind of ironic that my
Mitsubishi 3000GT which uses a Chrysler-made 4 speed transmission provides a
drain plug in both the trans pan...

Hmmm - does that mean I could get a drain pan from a 3000GT out of a
junk yard and it would fit the tranny on my LH vehicle? That would be
nice.

...and the transaxle as well!...

FWIW, the Chrysler LH vehicles (4-speed tranny) do have a drain plug on
the differential.

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with "x")

 

[Bob Shuman]

Bill,
See comments below.
Bob

Whoah! No doubt you meant 40-45 in-lbs. (FSM says 40 in-lbs).

Yes, a mental slip here during typing. I definitely used the 3/8" torque
wrench (in-pounds) and not my 1/2" (foot pounds). Thanks for the catch.

Hmmm - does that mean I could get a drain pan from a 3000GT out of a
junk yard and it would fit the tranny on my LH vehicle? That would be
nice.

I doubt you will find any 3000GT's or Dodge Stealth's for that matter in
junk yards since they are a very popular car and didn't have tons sold like
with other models. (My reference point here is that I've not been able to
locate parts locally for my 1991 model year.) I'd also guess that even if
you did, it would not likely be an automatic since most were equipped with
manual transmissions. I just found it kind of funny that they put the drain
plug in for the version they sold to Mitsubishi. My guess is that
Mitsubishi required this modification. I have not compared the trans pan
bolt pattern to my van or Eagle Vision (LH Body) to see if it would fit. By
the way, my 1991 Mitsubishi has 127K miles on the original transmission and
it is still performing well.

FWIW, the Chrysler LH vehicles (4-speed tranny) do have a drain plug on
the differential.

Yes, I just drained and refilled my LH differential the other weekend.
Draining was a breeze, but refilling required use of a fill/suction gun due
to the location of the fil hole. I'm glad the drain was provided as it
would have been a real PITA to try to suck all the gear lube out therough
the fill hole!

 

[RPhillips47]

With all these posts, discussions and warnings I am glad I took my T&C to my
dealer and paid the $150 for them to do it!
RP

 

[Bill Putney]

I doubt you will find any 3000GT's or Dodge Stealth's for that matter in
junk yards since they are a very popular car and didn't have tons sold like
with other models. (My reference point here is that I've not been able to
locate parts locally for my 1991 model year.) I'd also guess that even if
you did, it would not likely be an automatic since most were equipped with
manual transmissions. I just found it kind of funny that they put the drain
plug in for the version they sold to Mitsubishi...

My www.car-parts.com search on 1991 turned up zero tranny pans, but a
bunch of automatic trannies - listing '91 and '92 Dodge Stealth's and
Mitsi 3000's as source cars. (Kinda makes sense - who's going to go to
the trouble of listing a tranny pan that is obviously attached to a
tranny which would have more value, even if bad, than the pan by
itself?)

Yes, I just drained and refilled my LH differential the other weekend.
Draining was a breeze, but refilling required use of a fill/suction gun due
to the location of the fil hole.

My solution on my Concorde was a rubber hose plugged onto a small
funnel.

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with "x")

 

[SnThetcOil]

Do yourself a BIG favor and buy everything frm the dealer. You will have the

proper quality parts. I lost a trans due to a cheap chinese non oem filter.
VERY costly mistake. Never again.
Larry

Generally, new car dealers suck your wallet dry when it comes to parts
prices.
You can purchase quality aftermarket parts without using cheap/low quality made
in China junk.

To respond via e-mail, simply take the, "REMOVEXX" out of my return e-mail
address.

 

[jdoe]

Well that replacement trans due to a cheap AutoZone part sure sucked my
wallet dry! It's your money your car. Do what you want.
Larry

 

[SnThetcOil]

Well that replacement trans due to a cheap AutoZone part sure sucked my

wallet dry! It's your money your car. Do what you want.
Larry

I agree Larry. Discount auto parts stores generally don't have very good
parts.

To respond via e-mail, simply take the, "REMOVEXX" out of my return e-mail
address.

 

[Ted Mittelstaedt]

I agree Larry. Discount auto parts stores generally don't have very good
parts.

Hate to deflate you guys from a good roll but this is highly individualistic
to the part and to the region.

For example about a month ago I replaced a leaking fuel pump in my GM
wagon. The new aftermarket pump at the first place I looked at (autozone)
had one of the output nipples cocked at about a 4 degree difference from the
OEM pump. Not wishing to bend the steel lines that went to the pump I
went to no less than THREE other parts places ranging in reputation/quality.
Every one of them had the same damn pump in stock, same manufacturer,
same 4 degree difference. And that was the only version of this pump they
carried. The only difference was the price was wildly all
over the map. Since the estimated street value of this car was under $1K I
finally ended up grumbling and buying the pump and bending the steel line
that was affected enough to get it to mate up.

I have come to the conclusion that repair parts are always somewhat of a
crapshoot, even if you get them from the dealer. In the case of the trans
filter for your van, I have a 95 T&C myself and I know that particular
filter
you speak of well. Every parts store in this city that I've looked for this
filter from, no matter what manufacturer
of filter is on the box, be it Fram, Purolator or whatever, has the exact
same
filter inside, and the manufacturer stamped on the filter is the same, and
it's
NOT any of the manufacturers on the outside of the box. Quite obviously
all of them buy this filter from the same OEM and put it in their own box.
I didn't compare it against the Mopar filter so I will allow that there's
most
likely a difference between the Mopar filter and the other filters. But as
for comparison in the aftermarket, a great many of these parts out there
seem to have the same origination point, and are the same between the
good quality auto parts stores and the discount auto parts stores.

In my opinion, the difference between the discount auto parts places and
the high end auto parts places is that the discounters are staffed by
minimum
wage high school kids that have no understanding of what the hell they are
selling, while the better auto parts places seem to have a much higher
percentage
of parts guys who are either career parts guys, or retired mechanics, or
otherwise have brains in their heads. Unfortunately the parts themselves
seem
to be selected by purchasing agents stuffed away in an office in Kansas City
who have never touched a car engine, and who's only interest is in how cheap
they can get it.

Ted

 

[Bill Putney]

I have come to the conclusion that repair parts are always somewhat of a
crapshoot, even if you get them from the dealer. In the case of the trans
filter for your van, I have a 95 T&C myself and I know that particular
filter
you speak of well. Every parts store in this city that I've looked for this
filter from, no matter what manufacturer
of filter is on the box, be it Fram, Purolator or whatever, has the exact
same
filter inside, and the manufacturer stamped on the filter is the same, and
it's
NOT any of the manufacturers on the outside of the box. Quite obviously
all of them buy this filter from the same OEM and put it in their own box.
I didn't compare it against the Mopar filter so I will allow that there's
most
likely a difference between the Mopar filter and the other filters. But as
for comparison in the aftermarket, a great many of these parts out there
seem to have the same origination point, and are the same between the
good quality auto parts stores and the discount auto parts stores.

In my opinion, the difference between the discount auto parts places and
the high end auto parts places is that the discounters are staffed by
minimum
wage high school kids that have no understanding of what the hell they are
selling, while the better auto parts places seem to have a much higher
percentage
of parts guys who are either career parts guys, or retired mechanics, or
otherwise have brains in their heads. Unfortunately the parts themselves
seem
to be selected by purchasing agents stuffed away in an office in Kansas City
who have never touched a car engine, and who's only interest is in how cheap
they can get it.

In general, there's a lot of truth in what you say, but I'll add a
couple of comments:
(1) In certain commodity areas, it appears that NAPA (and possible
certain others too) does do a better job at screening suppliers and
design and quality of product. Two case in point (a) NAPA seems to pick
better suppliers of rebuilt half shafts (this comment based on several
years of reading personal experiences on several automotive forums, and
(b) Alternators: I went thru three alternators for a Cadillac I used to
own from a well-known auto parts chain. The alternators were clearly
inferior to the casual observer, and the plastic fan would disentigrate
leaving the pulley free to rotate on the shaft after just 2 to 4 months,
and the chain was clearly not doing anything to resolve the problem with
the supplier over the year that I spent replacing their product several
times. After I finally demanded a refund, the alternator I got at NAPA
was a little more expensive, but was clearly made to a high standard
(and both were of the best they had to offer - lifetime warranty). It
never gave a moment's problem until I sold the car two years later. So
how's that for anecdotal "proof"? 8^)
(2) It has been urban rumor (I don't call it myth or legend, because
this rumor hapens to have some truth to it) not to buy critical
electrical parts from the chain stores. After working as an engineering
manager for an OEM supplier of 60% of a certain critical electrical
commodity to the U.S. auto market, I can tell you that it is common for
production fallout to be sold off for aftermarket. These were not just
cosmetic defects parts - these were performance and function defects (or
lets just say their tolerances were just a little wider than what got
shipped for new cars). Here's the kicker: Usually the first people our
sales people got on the blower with when we had a batch of out of spec.
but otherwise marginal parts were the car mfgrs. for distribution into
their dealer replacement parts supply chain.

As a consumer, it appears that the same "me too" philosophy prevails in
so-called OEM body parts. Suppliers of "OEM" fenders are not the same
ones that go on the cars at the factory, and the fit standards are
clearly no better, in some cases, inferior to, "non-OEM" parts. The
"keep your car all XXX by using OEM parts" has lost all meaning for me.

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with "x")