E85: Can I use it?

[Paul Johnson]

I'm a courier in the Portland area, and my delivery van is a 1977 Dodge Tradesman with a 5.9l 260in² V8. It's starting to drive me batshit with how much cheaper E85 is than E10 (gasoline sales have been banned here for over a year now), and it only gets cheaper and more available week after week here. Can I go ahead and switch to E85, or do I need to do something special before I go and do that?

 

[Bill Putney]

I'm a courier in the Portland area, and my delivery van is a 1977 Dodge Tradesman with a 5.9l 260in² V8. It's starting to drive me batshit with how much cheaper E85 is than E10 (gasoline sales have been banned here for over a year now), and it only gets cheaper and more available week after week here. Can I go ahead and switch to E85, or do I need to do something special before I go and do that?

When I designed fuel related parts for automotive in the 90's, my understanding was that special materials have to be used to go to E85. Problems would be corrosion of metal parts and degradation of plastic materials that are not specifically engineered for that amount of ethanol.

Maybe someone will post who has more specific information.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')

 

[maxpower]

When I designed fuel related parts for automotive in the 90's, my understanding was that special materials have to be used to go to E85. Problems would be corrosion of metal parts and degradation of plastic materials that are not specifically engineered for that amount of ethanol.

Maybe someone will post who has more specific information.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')

That is correct Bill

Glenn

 

[Road Runner]

You must also factor in that alcohol has less energy than gas and you must use more of it to go the same distance.

 

[Ron Seiden]

You must also factor in that alcohol has less energy than gas and you must use more of it to go the same distance.

The cars manufactured to run on E85 (so-called "flex-fuel" cars) have their computers set up to detect the burning & energy characteristics of whatever fuel is going into the engine. It then adjusts the injectors for the proper mixture (considering the differing BTUs of alcohol vs. gasoline) as well as making any necessary adjustments to the ignition. Changing a gasoline-only engine to run on E85 involves lots of different hardware & software...

 

[Paul Johnson]

You must also factor in that alcohol has less energy than gas and you must use more of it to go the same distance.

[citation needed]

Never mind biodiesel has more energy than petrodiesel; I have a very hard time believing it doesn't carry over to ethanol.

 

[Paul Johnson]

The cars manufactured to run on E85 (so-called "flex-fuel" cars) have their computers set up to detect the burning & energy characteristics of whatever fuel is going into the engine. It then adjusts the injectors for the proper mixture (considering the differing BTUs of alcohol vs. gasoline) as well as making any necessary adjustments to the ignition. Changing a gasoline-only engine to run on E85 involves lots of different hardware & software...

Someone wasn't paying attention. Vehicle in question is not fuel injected. The only printed circuit board that came with the vehicle exists only to provide mounts and power for some instrument lights and a couple gauges. It's all-analog, baby!

 

[Daniel Who Wants to Know]

You must also factor in that alcohol has less energy than gas and you must use more of it to go the same distance.

[citation needed]

Never mind biodiesel has more energy than petrodiesel; I have a very hard time believing it doesn't carry over to ethanol.

"A big problem is that ethanol cuts miles per gallon by about 27%. The energy content of E85 is 83,000 BTU/gallon, instead of 114,000 BTU/gallon for gasoline. Even by 2030, the U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA) projects that only 1.4% of ethanol use will be E85. The vast majority will be for small percentage blending with gasoline." http://www.greencoast.org/node/64060

Max. Power Stoichiometric
Gasoline 12.5-13.2:1 14.7:1
E85 6.9-8.4:1 9.7:1
http://www.megamanual.com/flexfuel.htm

Unlike biodiesel, corn ethanol is a losing game energy wise. I have heard reports that when you consider the oil based fertilizers and diesel required to farm the corn you end up with between 1.1-1.8 gallons of diesel in to get a single gallon of ethanol out. since E100 (pure ethanol) is ~75,000 BTU/Gal and diesel is 130,500BTU/Gal you need 143,550-234,900 BTU in to get 75000 out. that is between a 1.914:1 to 3.132:1 ratio of BTU inut.

 

[Road Runner]

Ethanol has less BTU than gasoline, therefore the more gasoline you replace with ethanol (E10, E85,etc) the less energy you will get out of it so you must use more of it to get the same power. FFV vehicles get 25-35% less fuel economy on E85 than on gasoline alone. Yes the emissions are cleaner but the production of the fertilizer to grow the corn and the processing to ethanol more than make up for it. To run a carbureted engine would need new fuel system that wouldn't be destroyed by the ethanol, carburetor with richer mixture, advanced ignition timing and compression to restore lost power. With decrease in mileage, is it worth it to switch and will you ever recoup your cost to your now E85 ONLY vehicle?

 

[Paul Johnson]

[citation needed]

Never mind biodiesel has more energy than petrodiesel; I have a very hard time believing it doesn't carry over to ethanol.

"A big problem is that ethanol cuts miles per gallon by about 27%. The energy content of E85 is 83,000 BTU/gallon, instead of 114,000 BTU/gallon for gasoline. Even by 2030, the U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA) projects that only 1.4% of ethanol use will be E85. The vast majority will be for small percentage blending with gasoline."http://www.greencoast.org/node/64060

Max. Power Stoichiometric
Gasoline 12.5-13.2:1 14.7:1
E85 6.9-8.4:1 9.7:1http://www.megamanual.com/flexfuel.htm

Unlike biodiesel, corn ethanol is a losing game energy wise. I have heard reports that when you consider the oil based fertilizers and diesel required to farm the corn you end up with between 1.1-1.8 gallons of diesel in to get a single gallon of ethanol out.

What if the local ethanol source is not corn, but soy or canola?

 

[Paul Johnson]

carburetor with richer mixture,

I'm wondering if changing out the carb is necessary if it's a manual choke...isn't the mixture controlled by the choke?

With decrease in mileage, is it worth it to switch and will you ever recoup your cost to your now E85 ONLY vehicle?

At 60 cents cheaper than E10 and dropping fast, yes, in relatively short order compared to someone who is doing this on a project beater or commuter rig. About the only way it wouldn't be the cheapest route is if manufacturers started charging actually reasonable amounts for new vehicles instead of charging about what it costs to buy a house in the deep woods.

 

[who]

I'm a courier in the Portland area, and my delivery van is a 1977 Dodge Tradesman with a 5.9l 260in² V8. It's starting to drive me batshit with how much cheaper E85 is than E10 (gasoline sales have been banned here for over a year now), and it only gets cheaper and more available week after week here. Can I go ahead and switch to E85, or do I need to do something special before I go and do that?

I wouldn't waste my time, effort and dollars on converting your van. As has been said you lose power and you will have less MPG. Consumers Reports covered this a few years ago. It makes no economic sense, even without considering the energy costs to produce it.

No gasoline sales in Portland?
Guess I won't fuel up there on my trips south.
Portland has always been my first fill up location on my drives south from Vancouver,BC. My oldie '95 car likes gasoline!

I see this online:

Jan-14-2008 10:30
10% Ethanol Blend Mandated in Oregon Beginning Tuesday
Salem-News.com Business Report
As of January 15th, E10 Fuel is Required to be Pumped in Northwest Oregon.

So why not stick to E10?
The article says even E10 may cause some fuel system problems with older vehicles. Factor in the reduces mileage with E85. That may change you mind as what E85 is worth per gallon. A Google tells me there is a 25 to 30% MPG reduction with E85.

 

[Daniel Who Wants to Know]

You must also factor in that alcohol has less energy than gas and you must use more of it to go the same distance.

[citation needed]

Never mind biodiesel has more energy than petrodiesel; I have a very hard time believing it doesn't carry over to ethanol.

"A big problem is that ethanol cuts miles per gallon by about 27%. The energy content of E85 is 83,000 BTU/gallon, instead of 114,000 BTU/gallon for gasoline. Even by 2030, the U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA) projects that only 1.4% of ethanol use will be E85. The vast majority will be for small percentage blending with gasoline."http://www.greencoast.org/node/64060

Max. Power Stoichiometric
Gasoline 12.5-13.2:1 14.7:1
E85 6.9-8.4:1
9.7:1http://www.megamanual.com/flexfuel.htm

Unlike biodiesel, corn ethanol is a losing game energy wise. I have heard reports that when you consider the oil based fertilizers and diesel required to farm the corn you end up with between 1.1-1.8 gallons of diesel in to get a single gallon of ethanol out.

What if the local ethanol source is not corn, but soy or canola?

It can work with the right source. Brazil seems to be having great success with ethanol from sugar cane waste. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel_in_Brazil I know it is just a wiki page but it is better than nothing.

 

[Paul Johnson]

I wouldn't waste my time, effort and dollars on converting your van. As has been said you lose power and you will have less MPG. Consumers Reports covered this a few years ago. It makes no economic sense, even without considering the energy costs to produce it.

No gasoline sales in Portland?
Guess I won't fuel up there on my trips south.

In Portland last year, the 10 willamette valley counties starting 1/1/08, another 5 counties this summer, and statewide by the end of the year.

Portland has always been my first fill up location on my drives south from Vancouver,BC. My oldie '95 car likes gasoline!

My old 1995 Kia couldn't ever tell the difference. Neither did the ancient Tradesman.

I see this online:

So why not stick to E10?

While E10 is cheaper than gasoline, it's not cheap enough for my purposes.

Factor in the reduces mileage with E85. That may change you mind as what E85 is worth per gallon. A Google tells me there is a 25 to 30% MPG reduction with E85.

Yeah, and it costs 50% less.

 

[Steve (archive)]

You must also factor in that alcohol has less energy than gas and you must use more of it to go the same distance.

[citation needed]

Citation needed??? You've GOT to be kidding!

Any chemistry course is sufficient citation. Reading any book on jetting a carburetor for alcohol vice gasoline is sufficient citation. Its damn near common knowledge that alcohol contains fewer joules of energy per gallon, and that its stoichiometric ratio with air is affected (meaning exactly what Roadrunner said- you have to burn more of it to go the same distance. But if you insist on playing dumb, just look it up in the CRC Handbook of Chemsitry and Physics.

Never mind biodiesel has more energy than petrodiesel; I have a very hard time believing it doesn't carry over to ethanol.

Alcohol isn't biodiesel, and gasoline isn't petrodiesel. Did you even engage your brain for a half second before posting this drivel?

 

[Steve (archive)]

I'm wondering if changing out the carb is necessary if it's a manual choke...isn't the mixture controlled by the choke?

If you don't understand a carburetor any better than this, you're in over your head while still in the kiddie pool.

NO the choke doesn't control mixture during normal operation. The jets and either metering rods (Carter and Rochester carburetors for example) or power enrichment valve (Holley and Stromberg carburetors for example) control mixture during normal operation. The mixture adjustment screws only affect the mixture at idle, and the choke only enriches the mixture at very low power settings and when cold.

Holley makes carburetors set up for operation on straight ethanol (drag racing applications) which would probably be the best starting place to start in setting up a carburetor for E-85, since E-85 is much closer to straight alky than it is to straight gasoline. IOW, you would start with an alky carb and lean it a few percent, rather than starting with a gasoline carb and have to enrich it >100%

 

[Guest]

Yeah, and it costs 50% less.

Wow, big payout by the taxpayer!

 

[Road Runner]

Just checked fuel prices in the Portland area and found no E85 prices ($2.69) that were anywhere near 50% less than gasoline($3.18) but more like 50 cents cheaper per gallon which works out to about 15% cheaper. Again the E85 is more expensive to run because you must use about 30% MORE!!!! No savings.

 

[Bret Ludwig]

Ethanol has less BTU than gasoline, therefore the more gasoline you replace with ethanol (E10, E85,etc) the less energy you will get out of it so you must use more of it to get the same power. FFV vehicles get 25-35% less fuel economy on E85 than on gasoline alone. Yes the emissions are cleaner but the production of the fertilizer to grow the corn and the processing to ethanol more than make up for it. To run a carbureted engine would need new fuel system that wouldn't be destroyed by the ethanol, carburetor with richer mixture, advanced ignition timing and compression to restore lost power. With decrease in mileage, is it worth it to switch and will you ever recoup your cost to your now E85 ONLY vehicle?

You DO NOT need to change cam and compression to keep power the same, only to increase it.

You do not need to replace the entire fuel system, the stock tank and hard lines are fine on E85. I would replace the rubber, and rebuild the carb with the latest gaskets and float as well as of course lay in a good supply of jets as you will need to experiment. Actually I would change to a Holley with the aftermarket Weber emulsion tube metering block. I'd get rid of the engine driven diaphragm pump and run AN lines and a really butch fuel filter on a pad probably.

I'd probably punch the cat con for good measure.

Fuel mileage will suck, but, it's the satisfaction that counts, right??

If you want economy check out propane.

 

[Bret Ludwig]

If you don't understand a carburetor any better than this, you're in over your head while still in the kiddie pool.

NO the choke doesn't control mixture during normal operation. The jets and either metering rods (Carter and Rochester carburetors for example) or power enrichment valve (Holley and Stromberg carburetors for example) control mixture during normal operation. The mixture adjustment screws only affect the mixture at idle, and the choke only enriches the mixture at very low power settings and when cold.

Holley makes carburetors set up for operation on straight ethanol (drag racing applications) which would probably be the best starting place to start in setting up a carburetor for E-85, since E-85 is much closer to straight alky than it is to straight gasoline. IOW, you would start with an alky carb and lean it a few percent, rather than starting with a gasoline carb and have to enrich it >100%

Find out if it is for M100 or E100, usually the former. Methanol must be run considerably richer than ethanol.

Better yet get the books and build your own carb from parts because the drag race carb will not be worth a shit for the street.

If I were going to do this I'd have a good EGT gauge fitted too.

Another alternative is to use GM TBI and MegaSquirt ECM.