E85: Can I use it?

I'm a courier in the Portland area, and my delivery van is a 1977
Dodge Tradesman with a 5.9l 260in² V8. It's starting to drive me
batshit with how much cheaper E85 is than E10 (gasoline sales have
been banned here for over a year now), and it only gets cheaper and
more available week after week here. Can I go ahead and switch to
E85, or do I need to do something special before I go and do that?

 

When I designed fuel related parts for automotive in the 90's, my
understanding was that special materials have to be used to go to E85.
Problems would be corrosion of metal parts and degradation of plastic
materials that are not specifically engineered for that amount of ethanol.

Maybe someone will post who has more specific information.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

That is correct Bill

Glenn

 

You must also factor in that alcohol has less energy than gas and you must
use more of it to go the same distance.

 

The cars manufactured to run on E85 (so-called "flex-fuel" cars) have their
computers set up to detect the burning & energy characteristics of whatever
fuel is going into the engine. It then adjusts the injectors for the proper
mixture (considering the differing BTUs of alcohol vs. gasoline) as well as
making any necessary adjustments to the ignition. Changing a gasoline-only
engine to run on E85 involves lots of different hardware & software...

 

[citation needed]

Never mind biodiesel has more energy than petrodiesel; I have a very
hard time believing it doesn't carry over to ethanol.

 

Someone wasn't paying attention. Vehicle in question is not fuel
injected. The only printed circuit board that came with the vehicle
exists only to provide mounts and power for some instrument lights and
a couple gauges. It's all-analog, baby!

 

"A big problem is that ethanol cuts miles per gallon by about 27%. The
energy content of E85 is 83,000 BTU/gallon, instead of 114,000 BTU/gallon
for gasoline. Even by 2030, the U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)
projects that only 1.4% of ethanol use will be E85. The vast majority will
be for small percentage blending with gasoline."
http://www.greencoast.org/node/64060

Max. Power Stoichiometric
Gasoline 12.5-13.2:1 14.7:1
E85 6.9-8.4:1 9.7:1
http://www.megamanual.com/flexfuel.htm


Unlike biodiesel, corn ethanol is a losing game energy wise. I have heard
reports that when you consider the oil based fertilizers and diesel required
to farm the corn you end up with between 1.1-1.8 gallons of diesel in to get
a single gallon of ethanol out. since E100 (pure ethanol) is ~75,000 BTU/Gal
and diesel is 130,500BTU/Gal you need 143,550-234,900 BTU in to get 75000
out. that is between a 1.914:1 to 3.132:1 ratio of BTU inut.

 

Ethanol has less BTU than gasoline, therefore the more gasoline you replace
with ethanol (E10, E85,etc) the less energy you will get out of it so you
must use more of it to get the same power. FFV vehicles get 25-35% less fuel
economy on E85 than on gasoline alone. Yes the emissions are cleaner but the
production of the fertilizer to grow the corn and the processing to ethanol
more than make up for it. To run a carbureted engine would need new fuel
system that wouldn't be destroyed by the ethanol, carburetor with richer
mixture, advanced ignition timing and compression to restore lost power.
With decrease in mileage, is it worth it to switch and will you ever recoup
your cost to your now E85 ONLY vehicle?

 

What if the local ethanol source is not corn, but soy or canola?

 

I'm wondering if changing out the carb is necessary if it's a manual
choke...isn't the mixture controlled by the choke?

At 60 cents cheaper than E10 and dropping fast, yes, in relatively
short order compared to someone who is doing this on a project beater
or commuter rig. About the only way it wouldn't be the cheapest
route is if manufacturers started charging actually reasonable amounts
for new vehicles instead of charging about what it costs to buy a
house in the deep woods.

 

I wouldn't waste my time, effort and dollars on converting your van.
As has been said you lose power and you will have less MPG.
Consumers Reports covered this a few years ago.
It makes no economic sense, even without considering the energy costs to
produce it.

No gasoline sales in Portland?
Guess I won't fuel up there on my trips south.
Portland has always been my first fill up location on my drives south
from Vancouver,BC. My oldie '95 car likes gasoline!

I see this online:

So why not stick to E10?
The article says even E10 may cause some fuel system problems with older
vehicles.
Factor in the reduces mileage with E85. That may change you mind as what
E85 is worth per gallon.
A Google tells me there is a 25 to 30% MPG reduction with E85.

 

It can work with the right source. Brazil seems to be having great success
with ethanol from sugar cane waste.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel_in_Brazil I know it is just a
wiki page but it is better than nothing.

 

In Portland last year, the 10 willamette valley counties starting
1/1/08, another 5 counties this summer, and statewide by the end of
the year.

My old 1995 Kia couldn't ever tell the difference. Neither did the
ancient Tradesman.

While E10 is cheaper than gasoline, it's not cheap enough for my
purposes.

Yeah, and it costs 50% less.

 

Citation needed??? You've GOT to be kidding!

Any chemistry course is sufficient citation. Reading any book on jetting
a carburetor for alcohol vice gasoline is sufficient citation. Its damn
near common knowledge that alcohol contains fewer joules of energy per
gallon, and that its stoichiometric ratio with air is affected (meaning
exactly what Roadrunner said- you have to burn more of it to go the same
distance. But if you insist on playing dumb, just look it up in the CRC
Handbook of Chemsitry and Physics.

Alcohol isn't biodiesel, and gasoline isn't petrodiesel. Did you even
engage your brain for a half second before posting this drivel?

 

If you don't understand a carburetor any better than this, you're in
over your head while still in the kiddie pool.

NO the choke doesn't control mixture during normal operation. The jets
and either metering rods (Carter and Rochester carburetors for example)
or power enrichment valve (Holley and Stromberg carburetors for example)
control mixture during normal operation. The mixture adjustment screws
only affect the mixture at idle, and the choke only enriches the mixture
at very low power settings and when cold.

Holley makes carburetors set up for operation on straight ethanol (drag
racing applications) which would probably be the best starting place to
start in setting up a carburetor for E-85, since E-85 is much closer to
straight alky than it is to straight gasoline. IOW, you would start with
an alky carb and lean it a few percent, rather than starting with a
gasoline carb and have to enrich it >100%

 

Wow, big payout by the taxpayer!

 

Just checked fuel prices in the Portland area and found no E85 prices
($2.69) that were anywhere near 50% less than gasoline($3.18) but more
like 50 cents cheaper per gallon which works out to about 15% cheaper. Again
the E85 is more expensive to run because you must use about 30% MORE!!!! No
savings.

 

You DO NOT need to change cam and compression to keep power the same,
only to increase it.

You do not need to replace the entire fuel system, the stock tank and
hard lines are fine on E85. I would replace the rubber, and rebuild
the carb with the latest gaskets and float as well as of course lay in
a good supply of jets as you will need to experiment. Actually I would
change to a Holley with the aftermarket Weber emulsion tube metering
block. I'd get rid of the engine driven diaphragm pump and run AN
lines and a really butch fuel filter on a pad probably.

I'd probably punch the cat con for good measure.

Fuel mileage will suck, but, it's the satisfaction that counts,
right??

If you want economy check out propane.

 

Find out if it is for M100 or E100, usually the former. Methanol must
be run considerably richer than ethanol.

Better yet get the books and build your own carb from parts because
the drag race carb will not be worth a shit for the street.

If I were going to do this I'd have a good EGT gauge fitted too.

Another alternative is to use GM TBI and MegaSquirt ECM.