charging problem with 93 dodge spirit - voltage regulator?

[frankvan]

93 dodge spirit 220K miles

My Check engine light came on and the voltage indicator looked low (10-12V). Fault codes wer 12, 17 (fixed by replacing thermostat), and
41. Checked the alternator (it was bad), replaced it and took a test drive. So far so good.

The next day , the check engine light came back on and the charge dropped back to 11. Pulled the alternator back out and had it checked (it was good). Replaced the alternator belt. Problem went away. Three miles down the road, the problem returned (I checked the belt tension when I got to work and it seemed OK)

Next step - voltage regulator?
The consensus seems to be that the voltage regualtor lives in the computer, but how do I verify (the Bosch replacement alternator didn't have a sticker on it labeling it as externally regulated). Also, the alternator has 5 connections (3 large posts and 2 small). I assume the large posts are B+ and field connections? What are the 2 small posts?

Thanks for any help - I'll be the first to admit I don't really know what I'm doing.

 

[kmatheson]

93 dodge spirit 220K miles

My Check engine light came on and the voltage indicator looked low (10-12V). Fault codes wer 12, 17 (fixed by replacing thermostat), and
41. Checked the alternator (it was bad), replaced it and took a test drive. So far so good.

The next day , the check engine light came back on and the charge dropped back to 11. Pulled the alternator back out and had it checked (it was good). Replaced the alternator belt. Problem went away. Three miles down the road, the problem returned (I checked the belt tension when I got to work and it seemed OK)

Next step - voltage regulator?
The consensus seems to be that the voltage regualtor lives in the computer, but how do I verify (the Bosch replacement alternator didn't have a sticker on it labeling it as externally regulated). Also, the alternator has 5 connections (3 large posts and 2 small). I assume the large posts are B+ and field connections? What are the 2 small posts?

Thanks for any help - I'll be the first to admit I don't really know what I'm doing.

If the computer-integrated regulator is bad, it will set a code. It may even be the 41 that you got.

If the regulator is bad, the problem can be fixed by installing an external regulator. Dan Stern posted the procedure in this NG just last week. A search of this NG should find it.

-Kirk Matheson

 

[Daniel J. Stern]

If the computer-integrated regulator is bad, it will set a code. It may even be the 41 that you got.

Yep, it'll be the 41 he got.

If the regulator is bad, the problem can be fixed by installing an external regulator. Dan Stern posted the procedure in this NG just last week. A search of this NG should find it.

I keep that text on "speed dial".

 

[JustMe]

Thanks for any help - I'll be the first to admit I don't really know what I'm doing.

One thing to check is the battery connections. They can cause a lot of weird problems when the connection isn't quite good enough. A lot of the problems they cause don't make sense, and it's very hard to figure out how a battery connection could cause such problems.

One way to check the connection is to turn on the headlights and measure the voltage between the battery post and the cable terminal which is attached to that post. That voltage should be zero. If you can measure even a fraction of a volt, the connection is bad.

When my battery connections were bad, I fixed them by cleaning the insides of the cable terminals, where they wrap around the posts, with fine sandpaper, and replacing the bolts that tighten the terminals, because those bolts were ruined by age and corrosion.

 

[NoNick]

One way to check the connection is to turn on the headlights and measure the voltage between the battery post and the cable terminal which is attached to that post. That voltage should be zero. If you can measure even a fraction of a volt, the connection is bad.

The voltage between post and terminal is 0.000 Volts. Voltage between +Post and B+ is 0.035V with headlights on. I know there should be some potential drop across the wire to the B+ terminal, but how much?

Also, the harness that attaches to the alternator has 5 leads, the wo smallest attach out of a black plastic 3"x2" cartridge looking thing. Anybody know what purpose this serves?

Thanks,
Frank

 

[NoNick]

Found D. Stern's post, which also explained the two small studs.
Off we go.

 

[NoNick]

Sorry for the string of posts.
After some poking around with a voltmeter and reading D. Stern's post several times, I've identified the two field terminals, and have two ground studs handy on the alternator itself.

(sheepishly): Does the connection between (new) regulator base and battery neg need to go all the way back to the battery, or can I use one of the ground studs on the alternator?

Thanks for all the help,
Frank

 

[Daniel J. Stern]

93 dodge spirit 220K miles
Next step - voltage regulator?

Yep, next step voltage regulator. I post the facts and fix on this issue about once a month.

The consensus seems to be that the voltage
regualtor lives in the computer

Correct, the voltage regulator is in the SBEC (Single Board Engine Controller).

alternator has 5 connections (3 large posts and 2 small). I assume the large posts are B+ and field connections?

Nope, the shielded large one is B+ and the unshielded one is case ground. The two small ones are fields.

This voltage regulation issue is the most common SMEC/SBEC failure (which is not to say it's very common; Chrysler's modules tend to be pretty durable-just that this particular failure is usually how they fail.) The official fix is to replace the SMEC/SBEC.

Here is a much less costly fix that *will* work, without replacing the engine computer and without causing any additional problems:

First, pick one of the following regulators:

Regular normal electromechanical regulator:
NAPA Echlin VR32

Extra heavy duty electromechanical regulator w/vibrationproof mount:
NAPA Echlin VR34

Extra heavy duty electromechanical regulator w/vibrationproof mount and convenient external voltage adjustment screw:
NAPA Echlin VR35, Standard-Bluestreak VR106

Transistorized regulator with no moving parts (no adjusting screw):
Standard-Bluestreak VR101, Wells VR706 (the wells item is very inexpensive; it works but Wells doesn't make my favourite stuff)

Waterproof potted IC regulator with no moving parts (no adjusting screw):
NAPA Echlin VR1001, Standard-Bluestreak VR128

Any of these regulators will have two terminals on it, one marked "IGN" and the other marked "FLD". (the VR1001 and VR128 have the "fld" terminal on the end of a short wire lead). The alternator gets the original field wires removed from its two field terminals (right next to each other, small studs with nuts retaining the two flag terminals
-- be careful not to break off the studs!).

The regulator IGN terminal gets 12V via the ignition switch, and the "FLD" terminal gets connected via a wire to one (either) of the field terminal studs on the alternator. The other field terminal on the alternator gets connected via a wire to ground. Run a ground wire-16ga is plenty-between the regulator base and the battery negative terminal, and mount the regulator such that it won't rock 'n' roll around. At this point, your charging system will once again work fine. If you got the adjustable regulator, set it for 14.2v across the battery with the engine fully warmed up and idling, no lamps or other accessories on, and ambient temperature above 50°F.

Your "Check Engine" light will probably come on in response to this fix, because the SBEC does not see itself as able to control the voltage (right, it can't, because that's now the job of the new regulator you just finished installing!) To silence the spurious warning, put a resistor across the two original field wires that you removed from the alternator, before securing these wires such that they can't ground out or get caught in any moving parts.

Close the hood; you're done.

DS

 

[Daniel J. Stern]

Does the connection between (new) regulator base and battery neg need to go all the way back to the battery, or can I use one of the ground studs on the alternator?

Ground stud on alternator is fine.

 

[NoNick]

Hmm. Connected the new voltage regulator, and the charge to the battery is still low. Here's what I did:
1. Mounted the new regulator to one of the ignition coil mounting screws, which made both a secure mount and a good ground (I checked the resistance).
2. I connected the wire formerly connected to the top field post to the IGN stud (this is the same wire with 11.5 V when the car is running)
3. connected the FLD stud on the voltage regulator to the bottom field post of the alternator.
4. Left the B+ wire connected to the large shielded connector on the alternator
5. Connected the other field post and the 4th wire in the harness to one of the bolts in the body of the alternator (the 4th wire was formerly connected to the alternaotr body).
6. Reconnected the battery neg post and started the car. I have not connected the resistor yet between the wires formerly connected tot he filed posts, but from the previouis posts, it seems like this would only affect the check engine light, not the actual charge to the battery, yes?

Anything I'm doing worng?

 

[Daniel J. Stern]

2. I connected the wire formerly connected to the top field post to the IGN stud

No. The wires formerly connected to the alternator's two field studs DO NOT get connected to the new regulator. Follow the directions in my original post:

Run a NEW wire from ignition-switched +12V to the new regulator's "IGN" terminal.

Run a NEW wire from the new regulator's "FLD" terminal to one (either) of the alternator's field studs.

Run a NEW wire from the alternator's other field stud to ground.

DS

 

[NoNick]

Sorry if this posts twice
I'm all clear except on the ignition-switched 12 V. I assumed that meant +12 V when ignition is on, zero V when it is off. I checked the chassis electrical schematic and noted that one of the 4 wires to the alternator met this criteria, checked it with a voltmeter, and used that. It does happen that this wire is one of the former field connections. From the schematic, there are several other places to get at 12 V from the ignition switch (starter solonoid, blower motor, relay inputs), but they aren't nearly as accessible. Should I be using one fo these or am I making this way to difficult?
-F

 

[Daniel J. Stern]

I'm all clear except on the ignition-switched 12 V. I assumed that meant +12 V when ignition is on, zero V when it is off.
Correct.

I checked the chassis electrical schematic and noted that one of the 4 wires to the alternator met this criteria, checked it with a voltmeter, and used that.

You need that wire not to be connected to anything else, so that you can put a resistor between it and the other original field wire.

From the schematic, there are several other places to get at 12 V from the ignition switch (starter solonoid, blower motor, relay inputs), but they aren't nearly as accessible. Should I be using one fo these or am I making this way to difficult?

Don't believe there's an ignition-on feed at the starter solenoid, but that doesn't matter, because the starter solenoid is way out of your way. If I were doing this on a '93 like yours, I'd probably actually trigger a new relay off of the ASD relay's output (tap into the wire coming off the ASD relay's 87 terminal, run a new wire from there to the new relay's 86 terminal, ground the new relay's 85 terminal, run another new (fused) wire to the 30 of the new relay from any source of +12v (alternator B+ terminal would work), and connect the new relay's 87 terminal to the new regulator's "IGN" terminal. This way I'd avoid throwing too much extra load on any of the live-with-ignition-on circuits.

 

[NoNick]

I'll let y'all know how it goes.

Thanks,
-F

 

[NoNick]

Hooked it up as above, and the charge meter is still sitting at about 10 V. Poked around with a voltmeter, and #87 off the ASD relay does connect to one of the field post connectors, so right now I'm hooked up as before, but with a relay and a fused link added. Should I even be using the charging meter as an indicator of success? What's the best way to check the new regulator (maybe the new one isn't working)? I haven't added the resistor yet (my understanding is that the resistor's sole function is to prevent the check engine light from coming on - am I mistaken?)
-F

 

[Daniel J. Stern]

Hooked it up as above, and the charge meter is still sitting at about 10 V.

What does your handheld voltmeter say across the battery?

Poked around with a voltmeter, and #87 off the ASD relay does connect to one of the field post connectors, so right now I'm hooked up as before

Caramba, we've been through this before. It's possible, y'know, that the wire you keep on using, even though I keep saying not to, is faulty!

What's the best way to check the new regulator (maybe the new one isn't working)?

Look at voltage across the battery with the engine off and with the engine running

I haven't added the resistor yet (my understanding is that the resistor's sole function is to prevent the check engine light from coming on

Correct.

 

[NoNick]

What does your handheld voltmeter say across the battery?
Ignition off: 11.5 V
Ignition On: 10.9 V

Caramba, we've been through this before. It's possible, y'know, that the wire you keep on using, even though I keep saying not to, is faulty!

My mistake, I should have worded that a little differently. I meant electrically it's the same. I am using the lead coming out of the ASD relay.

the voltage going in [IGN to ground] and leaving [FLD to ground] the new voltage regulator is 10.7-10.8 V (makes sense to me, since the battery with ignition on is only 10.9), so it seems like it's working as best it can. Is there anything I can check on the alternator? I measured the resistance between the two field studs (suggested by Nomen Nescio above): infinite resistance (checked with FLD wire from voltage regulator disconnected and engine off).

F

 

[aarcuda69062]

I measured the resistance between the two field studs : infinite resistance F

There you go. Junk alternator.

 

[JustMe]

There you go. Junk alternator.

He already replaced the alternator. Are you saying the replacement is junk, and only lasted a few miles?

I'm wondering what it means that he measures 11.5 volts across his battery with no current drain. His battery is charged enough to crank his engine. I always thought it should read a full 12 volts when it's charged that much.

What symptoms has he had besides diagnostics and meter readings? Is it possible that some of the diagnostics and/or meter readings are wrong?

 

[Daniel J. Stern]

He already replaced the alternator. Are you saying the replacement is junk, and only lasted a few miles?

Certainly possible, if he bought a parts store "remanufactured" alternator. Or, he may not have measured correctly. Or, his meter may not have been in the correct mode.

it possible that some of the diagnostics and/or meter readings are wrong?

Yep!