Can oil & filters change cause enging fire?

The engine in my 1999 Chrysler Town & Country caught fire
yesterday causing total loss of the vehicle.
What is strange about this incident is that it happened
right after the oil change was done by one of the automotive
shop chains, specializing in quick oil, tire, batteries
and other small car repairs. It actually happened just
minutes after I left their location and was driving back
home.
I understand that many things may cause engine fire, but
on the other hand it happened so immediately after the
oil change was performed, that it is very hard to believe
that it was purely coincidental.
The repair included air and oil filters change and engine
oil change. Shortly after I started on my way home, I felt
fain smell as if of burning oil. Ironically, the fact that
the oil change was just done made me complacent about
it - I thought it was some small spillage. When it became
stronger and visible smoke appeared, I stopped, cut the
engine, went out and opened the hood. Unfortunately, it
was too late: there was a lot of smoke and the left side
of the battery, closer to the engine was on fire and
dripped plastic. When the fire department arrived,
the whole of the engine compartment was burning.

Some questions I have: Could the oil and filters change
cause engine fire so soon after it was done?
I asked both the fire marshal's and the tow truck driver's
opinion. Both think that it is unlikely. They said that
it takes a lot to actually ignite oil even if it spilled
as a result of incompetent repair. Also, the firemen
succeeded extracting the oil probe after extinguishing the
fire and it seemed to indicate that there was oil in the
engine.
I did some web research on the year/model after I came
home and found out that there was indeed recall on 1999
Chrysler T&C back in 2002 related to increased incidents
of engine fires.
This is the recall description:
http://auto-recalls.justia.com/content/00V268000-CHRYSLER-TOWN-AND-COUNTRY-1999.html
Summary:
vehicle description: mini vans built with 3.3l and
3.8l engines have fuel rails with nitrole rubber
o-ring seals that can degrade over time. fuel leakage
from the underhood fuel injection fuel rail could result,
increasing the likelihood of a vehicle fire.

The problem is that this vehicle was with previous owner in
2002. I bought it in 2003.
I'm wondering if the recall-related repairs were
performed. Will the dealer, where routine service was done
at the time give me this information or should I call
Chrysler's recalls information line?
Do car manufacturers keep centralized database of
recall-related repairs done by VIN based on dealers'
information?

I apologize for the long post. - Wanted to give all
the facts. I'm not trying to put the blame on anybody -
just trying to understand what went wrong.
At this point I see a lot of my blame in all this - for not
researching the recall history and not checking what recall
repairs were actually done and most of all for not having
a fire extinguisher in the car...
But still I somehow have this lingering suspicion that some
blunder occurred during the oil & filters change which they
didn't tell me about - it all happened just too soon after it.

IP.

 

Sorry to hear about the fire and loss. I doubt the actual oil or filter
change was the root cause here since both are primarily done from under the
engine and related to the oil (which does not burn easily) .

That said, like you, I would strongly suspect that the timing of this
incident was not purely coincidental! It's hard to imagine what they could
have screwed up while simply changing air and oil filters, but hey, stranger
things have happened. Maybe they knocked a fuel rail loose while they were
changing the air filter or a PCV valve or filling the oil through the fill
hole?

Bob

 

Thank you for your reply.
Please see some additional comments below.

I researched the oil as cause of fire and it does seem unlikely.

That was my initial suspicion too - both fire captain and tow truck guy said
that fire caused by oil leak is unlikely. The engine was cooling for two
hour and then it all happened just minutes from when it was started again.
They suggested fuel leak or fault in electric system or battery as a cause.

The service took unusually long - it normally takes an hour or so, but in
this case it took almost two. Last half hour, which I waited nearby,
I've seen mechanic busy working from the top part of the engine.
I even had some feeling that there is something wrong besides the service
I asked to do, but they didn't tell me anything, although I must admit
that I didn't ask when they finished.
Could it be the air filter that took him so long or he was trying to fix
something that he messed up accidentally?

I'm also wondering should I pursue this with this repair shop chain.
They have a big name and probably will be very defensive and deny
everything if I try to blame it on them. Also it looks almost hopeless
to prove anything at this point and confirm their fault as causing fire -
the engine compartment is badly burned and by looking at it there is no
clear indication of where it started.. I was thinking about going to
them today and asking if there was anything else they did on the engine
or any difficulty with the oil and filters change without giving any
indication of what happen to the van after the service.

Any advice will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,

 

You can give the dealer your vin number and they can tell if if there is any
outstanding recalls on your vehicle.
The fuel rail fix was replacing the rail assembly if it is already leaking
( you would have been smelling fuel ) and if it wasnt to install these seals
and clamps
I have seen some fires related to oil but those were on the old turbo
vehicles Chrysler had. The power steering pressure hose could develope a
leak and spray on the catylitic convertor and catch fire. (mine was one of
them). I dont think you oil change was related, especially if you say it
occured on the battery side of the vehicle.
My opinion only

Glenn Beasley
Chrysler Tech

 

I used Chrysler's web site to check if there are any recalls not performed.
There doesn't seem to be any. It looks like it is the same source of
information the dealers would use - there is the link from the "Owners" page
to the recalls query. Mine didn't return any outstanding recalls.

I wasn't smelling fuel while driving, but now that you mentioned it, I should
say that while the van was parked in enclosed garage there was fain smell,
sort of mixed oil & fuel smell. My other car, Honda Accord didn't smell at all.
I wonder if this fuel rail recall repair was actually performed on my vehicle
since it was with the previous owner on the year of recall - 2002. Would it be
visible as pending in recalls query I done through chrysler.com if previous
owner didn't apply for this recall repairs to be performed? - I think it would
since the query is for all the recalls which where not actually performed.
I'll try to call the dealer where it was serviced by the previous owner to
try and find out if it was indeed done.

 

Engine oil is not as difficult to ignite as you seem to think.

Do you even know what a fuel rail *looks* like? It's not something that
can be "knocked loose while changing the air filter".

 

So your judgement was poor twice: Once when you went to the quickie oil
change house in the first place, and again when you failed to demand an
explanation for the hour's worth of futzing around under the hood.

No, replacing the air filter takes a few minutes max.

Very likely.

Of course you should!

 

Dan,

In answer to your question, I most certainly do know what the fuel rail
looks like. It seems presumptuous of you to assume I do not by asking this
question.

The bottom line here is we will likely never know what caused the fire. I
was offering an opinion since the OP had requested this from newsgroup
readers.. You are certainly entitled to your opinion as well and it is fine
with me that it differs from my own. That said, your question appears to be
demeaning and was not called for...

Yes, I'll admit that oil leakage could certainly have been the cause of the
engine fire, but it's flash point is much higher than that of gasoline, and
the location of the oil filter on the 3.8L engine is not conducive to the
theory that this was started by the high temperatures at the exhaust
manifold or catalytic converter.

Bob

 

Could the engine be hot enough after driving for five minutes to
ignite it if it was not working for almost two hours before that?
Also fire dept. extracted the oil probe after putting out the fire.
It indicated there was oil in the engine. Also there was no lights
indicating that something was wrong.

I don't have any idea what it is. Is it close enough to air filter to
accidentally damage it while changing the air filter?

 

I very much appreciate your opinion. It is very helpful and knowledgeable.
Unfortunately, it'll probably be impossible to determine what caused the fire.
To quote the fire captain: "There's plenty of staff here that can burn".
Even headlights lids are made of plastic. BTW in tow truck guy's opinion,
batteries are frequently causing fires too. I'm not sure whether he meant
battery causing fire all by itself or electric wiring

In your opinion, is it worth while pursuing it with this repair shop or they
would just flatly deny any involvement? I also tried consulting attorneys,
but those guys are after bigger cases for the most part. Besides, as many
posters mentioned, it would be probably hard to prove direct relation of
the work performed to the fire and attempts to litigate this may cause
some additional fees and lawyer's fees besides the car that is already lost.
What do you think?

 

The question is how to do that. If I just go there and confrant them
with what happened. I doubt that they will admit anything.
Then the burden of proof will be on me. The question is can
anything be proven with enough certainty to go to court against them
provided that the engine compartment is badly burned and it probably
impossible to tell where the fire actually started...

 

I think if you have comprehensive auto insurance, as most people would on
such a young vehicle, that you should file a claim with your agent and
explain
that it took place minutes after leaving an oil change house.

Once your insurance company pays the claim then they own it, and can choose
or not to go after the oil change house. I would think that they would. It
isn't
an issue of whether you can or cannot prove anything. The fact that the
fire started
minutes after you left the oil change place means that there's a
preponderance of
the evidence that a mistake they made caused the fire. It isn't your job to
prove
that they touched something other than the oil.

Sure, it's tough luck on the oil change place if in actuality this was just
a terrible
coincidence. But that is why they carry business insurance on themselves.
Sometimes these things are true conicidences. But that is rare.

If however you don't have comprehensive insurance then your going to have
to suck it up. You should call the oil change shop, and ask who their
insurance
carrier is. If they refuse to give the name to you then call the district
attorney.
Once you get the carrier's name then call the carrier and explain your
situation and
throw yourself on their mercy. Of course they may tell you to blow off, and
if I were you I would pursue it in small claims. I would also pursue it
with the
local news while the story is still fresh.

Ted

 

Do you have insurance that covers loss/damage to your vehicle due to
fire? if so, file a claim and let the ins. co. deal with it: they've
got more lawyers than you can afford.

Perce

 

Yes. By the way, you can easily duplicate this experiment. Take
a car and drive it until it's good and hot. Shut it down and let it
sit for 2 hours. Start it up and drive for 5 minutes then stop, and take
an eyedropper of oil and squirt a few drops on the exhaust manifold
and see what happens.

Meaningless. Suppose for example that there was a pinhole in the
oil filter. Oil squirting out of that at high pressure could create a fog
that could flash ignite, then touch off the battery.

Ted

 

Not in the slightest. Your suggestion that the parts monkey at Quik-E-Loob
might have "knocked the fuel rail loose while changing the air filter" was
a very strong indication that you know nothing more than that there is
such a thing as a fuel rail.

 

Well, sure, the very shop you took your vehicle to will probably deny all.
But, these places cause enough problems that Corporate usually keeps a
fairly large insurance fund around to deal with them. I'm sure the place
you went will supply you -- cheerfully or jeerfully -- with contact info
for Corporate HQ, or you can hit Corporate's website to find out where to
send your letter.

Fires get investigated all the time, and for the right expert, it can be
much easier than seems logical to pinpoint the proximate and
contributing causes of
the fire.

 

It's not *terribly* likely, but it is possible.

This proves nothing.

This proves nothing.

No.

 

Another one of my mistakes is that I have only liability insurance on
this vehicle. But I went to this repair shop nonetheless today, which is
an automotive department of big and respectable department stores chain,
and talked to the manager of the automotive. I asked him why it took so long
to change the air filter and was there any problem doing it. - I mentioned
in another message in this thread that I had to wait about half an hour
extra, while I observed mechanic doing something under the hood all
this time between the engine and the battery, to the left of the battery.
He said he is aware of some difficulties that technician had replacing
the air filter since, as he said, "it is located not as on other cars"
and is "difficult to replace" and that in fact technician reported that
difficulty and that somebody else was sent to help him.
I asked the manager why they didn't tell me of the difficulties, to which
he didn't answer. All this took place after I said that there was a problem
with the car after the repair, but I didn't say what exactly the problem
was, but at this point he asked me what it was. I told him about the fire.
He looked astonished, but on the other hand in the conversation before
this point he admitted the difficulty and lack of knowledge by the
mechanic regarding the location of the air filter and its replacement.
Now the interesting part: the location where I first seen the fire when I
stopped and opened the hood, was the left side of the battery, where they
claimed the air filter was.
I checked the picture in owner manual and sure enough there is black
plastic lid at that location, but at the point when I opened the hood and
seen the fire and dripping plastic on the left side of the battery that lid
wasn't there at all and that whole place was sort of empty.
I don't know how it could have happened, but it looks like the fire
had first started at the air filter contrary to the previous discussion
in this thread about oil or fuel leak causing it. I even went to the tow
company parking lot where the vehicle is stored, looked at the engine again
and made pictures.

This poses the new question: Can the air filter catch fire if incompetently
replaced or if wrong model is used? I heard the engine backfire mentioned
as possible reason for something like this. Does anybody have any
information?

Another thing that I will have to do is to find an expert, that could give
a conclusion what caused the engine fire and whether it is related to the
air and oil filter change.
What remains to be seen is whether Chrysler dealership will agree to give
such an expert opinion. It is probably the insurance company that would
normally do such expert appraisal, but I mentioned that I don't have
comprehensive, so I'll have to find the expert myself.

Many thanks to you and other participants for valuable
advice and information.

IP.

 

I agree - it is probably much easier for the expert then it seems for the
layman. I'll try to get the expert opinion tomorrow.

See also my other message in this thread with
Message-Id: <>
About the possible connection of air filter replacement, not oil filter
as was previously discussed and as I initially thought.

IP.

 

While everything is fresh, sit down and write EVERYTHING DOWN, the
date, the time, the names of the people you talked to, the names of the
techs at the oil change place, what they said, every last thing.

I don't think so. However, being as it is near the battery, it is possible
that
somehow one of the metal filter hold-down-clips might not have been
snapped back on to the filter box, maybe fell off, and somehow got wedged
into the positive battery cable and grounded it out against the frame. That
would dump a huge current into the battery cable, heating it up, causing the
cable to catch
fire, and the rest is history.

Ted