Camshaft and Crankshaft Sensors?

Just got off the phone with him. He said he was able to do that and was
surprised that he didn't see anything when the vehicle would die. I
asked him about the fuel pressure test and he said they inserted a fuel
pressure meter in line (had a Schrader type valve fitting on it) and
didn't see any drop of pressure when it died.

Yeah, possibly. They're not charging me anything and the guy requested
that I call him and let him know what the dealership finds out.

 

There are ways to look at the adaptive fuel memories to see if the vehicle
is running lean or rich at the time the vehicle was acting up, our scan tool
will show what is called a secondary indicator meaning if it picks up a
glitch in a sensor that is to fast to set a mature fault it will alert the
technician what fault is trying to be set. we also use a tool called the
Co-Pilot which will take a picture of everything the engine controller is
doing so many seconds before and after the problem occurs. Maybe find a
dealer that has a good diagnostician that will tell you what the problem is.
Just curious what state are you in?

Glenn

 

Not in my area

 

Very interesting.

I'm in Minnesota and in my area the only dealer that can look at it
before next Wednesday is Shakopee Dodge. (My area means within 15 miles
of my house, or the approximate distance I can drive before the car
warms up and starts dropping out.) Other dealers close by are Park
Jeep/Chrysler (Burnsville), Walser Chrysler/Jeep (Hopkins), Bloomington
Chrysler/Jeep, and Dodge of Burnsville.

 

You might give Quinn's Automotive on Chestnut Blvd. a try.

 

I've already got an appointment at Shakopee Dodge for next Tuesday
morning, but I might call Quinn's anyway.

 

More info.

I drove the car home from the shop last night. As soon as I started it,
the Service Engine Soon light was on. I got about 2/3 of the way home
before the first stall out. This happened while stopped at a stop light
while idling. Engine starts stumbling, tach is bouncing down, then back
to idle, then down and it dies. Put it in park, turned key off, turn
key on, cranked engine and continued on my way. About a mile later same
thing happened--died while idling at a stop sign. Put it in park,
restart car. The last time it died I was making a right turn (via a
separate turn lane where I didn't need to come to a stop) when car
simply quit. Put in neutral while rolling and restarted and continued
home.

Once I got home I checked the error code. My old friend, error code 54.

Knowing it doesn't die when cold, I use the vehicle to bring my kids to
school this morning. On the way home the Service Engine Soon light
winks out. Error code 54 is still present.

 

por, I have a bad feeling you are chasing the same end of the tail,
without listening for other ways to diagnose.

 

As I've said, it's going to the dealership on Tuesday. I just thought
Maxpower and others would want an update as to what was going on.

 

Since your losing the tach signal it is related to the crank sensor/circuit.
When you put the crank sensor in, did you make sure it was pushed in all
the way? I don't have time to read all the replies but remember you
mentioning something about the paper.

Glenn

 

I don't know if I'm losing the tach signal, I think it's just bouncing
downward as engine RPM drops when it stumbles. I'm pretty sure I've got
the crank sensor pushed in all the way. The engine starts and runs fine
until it warms up. If the crank sensor wasn't installed properly
wouldn't it run crappy from initial start up?

 

I don't know if I'm losing the tach signal, I think it's just bouncing
downward as engine RPM drops when it stumbles. I'm pretty sure I've got
the crank sensor pushed in all the way. The engine starts and runs fine
until it warms up. If the crank sensor wasn't installed properly
wouldn't it run crappy from initial start up?


I have seen so many transmission jobs (recently done) come into the shop
because of a problem such as yours. And most of the time the paper was still
on the sensor. Just going from park to drive would sometimes cause the
engine to shut down . And no it may not cause a problem at start up. If you
aren't sure, before taking it to the shop again maybe remove the sensor and
see if the paper is still on it.

Just a thought

Glenn

 

please keep us posted
the crank and cam sensors can be watched with a lab scope and most good
scan tools have them. i even have access to a libary of square wave
patterns that is made by these sensors. the big question is are you
willing to pay for getting it checked out

 

Will do. I've sure gotten good at removing the darn thing. The problem
being if I remove it and the paper spacer is gone, then I've got to
glue a new paper spacer on there and reinstall and hope I've got it in
far enough. Even then, supposing I drive it until it warms up and it
doesn't stumble, doesn't light up the Service Engine Soon light, how
will I know I've fixed it once and for all? After all, I drove it
around fully warmed up for about 45 miles the first time I replaced the
cam sensor.

I guess I'd still want to keep my appointment at the dealership and
have them check it out just to be sure.

(And aarcuda69062 will rip me for dinking around with the crank sensor
again!)

 

I'll keep the group posted. I figure I might be helping someone else
later on that might encounter the same problem. Intermittent failures
are the worst.

And yes, I'm willing to pay to get it checked out. How long can it
take? Not sure, but I think the going shop rate around here for
dealerships is $130/hour. The shop I just took it to was charging
$100/hour.

 

Cool, no offense intended.

 

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over
expecting a different result...

It should only take a competent technician with the correct
equipment 5 minutes to verify cam sensor and crank sensor
operation.

The paper spacer is there to insure that the sensor isn't
installed to close to the shutter on the flywheel, such hat the
flywheel damages it.

"Dinking around" never fixed a single vehicle.

 

And now you know why.

 

What are you talking about?

All the paper spacer is for is to make sure the installing tech does not
push the sensor too close to the metal flywheel holes. It is completely
unnecessary otherwise

When I replaced my crank sensor I put the sensor in with the paper
spacer and bottomed it against the flywheel, per install instructions. I
then fired the engine up and got a slight telltale tick-tick-tick. I then
shut it down and loosened the sensor bolt and pulled the sensor out
another millimeter, tightened everything down and fired it up, no more
tick-tick-tick.

You need to understand how the sensor works. It's a Hall effect
sensor. It is not supposed to touch anything. It can sense the variation
in magnetic lines of force by the holes in the flexplate as they pass
the sensor. The closer the sensor is to the flexplate the stronger the
magnetic pulse is, and the easier for the sensor electronics to lock on
to, but there is no exact distance away that it needs to be. As close as
you can get it without touching is what you want. If the sensor is too
close then when the engine heats up the flexplate expands enough for
irregularities on the flexplate to start gouging into the end of the
sensor, which is definitely a bad thing.

If the sensor manufacturers could trust the installing technicians to
put in the sensor then pull it out 2-3 millimeters by feel, they would
simply put that into the instructions and wouldn't even bother with the
paper spacer.

These sensors do not have a fixed lifetime. It is quite possible to buy
a brand new sensor and have it work a month then fail. And the
crappy thing is that when they fail, they USUALLY fail intermittently.
That is why the prudent thing is that if you get a single trouble code in
the computer of either cam or crank sensor failure, then you immediately
replace both sensors.

Ted

 

Which for these sensor failures is useless unless you put the scan tool in
"recording" mode and have the customer drive the vehicle around normally
with the scan tool attached, in recording mode, until the thing fails again.

An intermittent sensor, per Murphy's law, will NEVER display a failure
indication in the shop.

Ted