Camshaft and Crankshaft Sensors?

Discussion in 'General Motoring' started by powrwrap, Dec 15, 2006.

  1. powrwrap

    powrwrap Guest

    Just got off the phone with him. He said he was able to do that and was
    surprised that he didn't see anything when the vehicle would die. I
    asked him about the fuel pressure test and he said they inserted a fuel
    pressure meter in line (had a Schrader type valve fitting on it) and
    didn't see any drop of pressure when it died.
    Yeah, possibly. They're not charging me anything and the guy requested
    that I call him and let him know what the dealership finds out.
    powrwrap, Dec 21, 2006
  2. powrwrap

    maxpower Guest

    There are ways to look at the adaptive fuel memories to see if the vehicle
    is running lean or rich at the time the vehicle was acting up, our scan tool
    will show what is called a secondary indicator meaning if it picks up a
    glitch in a sensor that is to fast to set a mature fault it will alert the
    technician what fault is trying to be set. we also use a tool called the
    Co-Pilot which will take a picture of everything the engine controller is
    doing so many seconds before and after the problem occurs. Maybe find a
    dealer that has a good diagnostician that will tell you what the problem is.
    Just curious what state are you in?

    maxpower, Dec 21, 2006
  3. powrwrap

    maxpower Guest

    Not in my area
    maxpower, Dec 21, 2006
  4. powrwrap

    powrwrap Guest

    Very interesting.
    I'm in Minnesota and in my area the only dealer that can look at it
    before next Wednesday is Shakopee Dodge. (My area means within 15 miles
    of my house, or the approximate distance I can drive before the car
    warms up and starts dropping out.) Other dealers close by are Park
    Jeep/Chrysler (Burnsville), Walser Chrysler/Jeep (Hopkins), Bloomington
    Chrysler/Jeep, and Dodge of Burnsville.
    powrwrap, Dec 21, 2006
  5. powrwrap

    aarcuda69062 Guest

    You might give Quinn's Automotive on Chestnut Blvd. a try.
    aarcuda69062, Dec 22, 2006
  6. powrwrap

    powrwrap Guest

    I've already got an appointment at Shakopee Dodge for next Tuesday
    morning, but I might call Quinn's anyway.
    powrwrap, Dec 22, 2006
  7. powrwrap

    powrwrap Guest

    More info.

    I drove the car home from the shop last night. As soon as I started it,
    the Service Engine Soon light was on. I got about 2/3 of the way home
    before the first stall out. This happened while stopped at a stop light
    while idling. Engine starts stumbling, tach is bouncing down, then back
    to idle, then down and it dies. Put it in park, turned key off, turn
    key on, cranked engine and continued on my way. About a mile later same
    thing happened--died while idling at a stop sign. Put it in park,
    restart car. The last time it died I was making a right turn (via a
    separate turn lane where I didn't need to come to a stop) when car
    simply quit. Put in neutral while rolling and restarted and continued

    Once I got home I checked the error code. My old friend, error code 54.

    Knowing it doesn't die when cold, I use the vehicle to bring my kids to
    school this morning. On the way home the Service Engine Soon light
    winks out. Error code 54 is still present.
    powrwrap, Dec 22, 2006
  8. por, I have a bad feeling you are chasing the same end of the tail,
    without listening for other ways to diagnose.
    Knifeblade_03, Dec 22, 2006
  9. powrwrap

    powrwrap Guest

    As I've said, it's going to the dealership on Tuesday. I just thought
    Maxpower and others would want an update as to what was going on.
    powrwrap, Dec 22, 2006
  10. powrwrap

    maxpower Guest

    Since your losing the tach signal it is related to the crank sensor/circuit.
    When you put the crank sensor in, did you make sure it was pushed in all
    the way? I don't have time to read all the replies but remember you
    mentioning something about the paper.

    maxpower, Dec 22, 2006
  11. powrwrap

    powrwrap Guest

    I don't know if I'm losing the tach signal, I think it's just bouncing
    downward as engine RPM drops when it stumbles. I'm pretty sure I've got
    the crank sensor pushed in all the way. The engine starts and runs fine
    until it warms up. If the crank sensor wasn't installed properly
    wouldn't it run crappy from initial start up?
    powrwrap, Dec 22, 2006
  12. powrwrap

    maxpower Guest

    I don't know if I'm losing the tach signal, I think it's just bouncing
    downward as engine RPM drops when it stumbles. I'm pretty sure I've got
    the crank sensor pushed in all the way. The engine starts and runs fine
    until it warms up. If the crank sensor wasn't installed properly
    wouldn't it run crappy from initial start up?

    I have seen so many transmission jobs (recently done) come into the shop
    because of a problem such as yours. And most of the time the paper was still
    on the sensor. Just going from park to drive would sometimes cause the
    engine to shut down . And no it may not cause a problem at start up. If you
    aren't sure, before taking it to the shop again maybe remove the sensor and
    see if the paper is still on it.

    Just a thought

    maxpower, Dec 22, 2006
  13. powrwrap

    philthy Guest

    please keep us posted
    the crank and cam sensors can be watched with a lab scope and most good
    scan tools have them. i even have access to a libary of square wave
    patterns that is made by these sensors. the big question is are you
    willing to pay for getting it checked out
    philthy, Dec 23, 2006
  14. powrwrap

    powrwrap Guest

    Will do. I've sure gotten good at removing the darn thing. The problem
    being if I remove it and the paper spacer is gone, then I've got to
    glue a new paper spacer on there and reinstall and hope I've got it in
    far enough. Even then, supposing I drive it until it warms up and it
    doesn't stumble, doesn't light up the Service Engine Soon light, how
    will I know I've fixed it once and for all? After all, I drove it
    around fully warmed up for about 45 miles the first time I replaced the
    cam sensor.

    I guess I'd still want to keep my appointment at the dealership and
    have them check it out just to be sure.

    (And aarcuda69062 will rip me for dinking around with the crank sensor
    powrwrap, Dec 23, 2006
  15. powrwrap

    powrwrap Guest

    I'll keep the group posted. I figure I might be helping someone else
    later on that might encounter the same problem. Intermittent failures
    are the worst.

    And yes, I'm willing to pay to get it checked out. How long can it
    take? Not sure, but I think the going shop rate around here for
    dealerships is $130/hour. The shop I just took it to was charging
    powrwrap, Dec 23, 2006
  16. Cool, no offense intended.
    Knifeblade_03, Dec 23, 2006
  17. powrwrap

    aarcuda69062 Guest

    The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over
    expecting a different result...

    It should only take a competent technician with the correct
    equipment 5 minutes to verify cam sensor and crank sensor

    The paper spacer is there to insure that the sensor isn't
    installed to close to the shutter on the flywheel, such hat the
    flywheel damages it.

    "Dinking around" never fixed a single vehicle.
    aarcuda69062, Dec 23, 2006
  18. powrwrap

    Dipstick Guest

    And now you know why.
    Dipstick, Dec 24, 2006
  19. What are you talking about?

    All the paper spacer is for is to make sure the installing tech does not
    push the sensor too close to the metal flywheel holes. It is completely
    unnecessary otherwise

    When I replaced my crank sensor I put the sensor in with the paper
    spacer and bottomed it against the flywheel, per install instructions. I
    then fired the engine up and got a slight telltale tick-tick-tick. I then
    shut it down and loosened the sensor bolt and pulled the sensor out
    another millimeter, tightened everything down and fired it up, no more

    You need to understand how the sensor works. It's a Hall effect
    sensor. It is not supposed to touch anything. It can sense the variation
    in magnetic lines of force by the holes in the flexplate as they pass
    the sensor. The closer the sensor is to the flexplate the stronger the
    magnetic pulse is, and the easier for the sensor electronics to lock on
    to, but there is no exact distance away that it needs to be. As close as
    you can get it without touching is what you want. If the sensor is too
    close then when the engine heats up the flexplate expands enough for
    irregularities on the flexplate to start gouging into the end of the
    sensor, which is definitely a bad thing.

    If the sensor manufacturers could trust the installing technicians to
    put in the sensor then pull it out 2-3 millimeters by feel, they would
    simply put that into the instructions and wouldn't even bother with the
    paper spacer.
    These sensors do not have a fixed lifetime. It is quite possible to buy
    a brand new sensor and have it work a month then fail. And the
    crappy thing is that when they fail, they USUALLY fail intermittently.
    That is why the prudent thing is that if you get a single trouble code in
    the computer of either cam or crank sensor failure, then you immediately
    replace both sensors.

    Ted Mittelstaedt, Dec 24, 2006
  20. Which for these sensor failures is useless unless you put the scan tool in
    "recording" mode and have the customer drive the vehicle around normally
    with the scan tool attached, in recording mode, until the thing fails again.

    An intermittent sensor, per Murphy's law, will NEVER display a failure
    indication in the shop.

    Ted Mittelstaedt, Dec 24, 2006
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