California's zero emission rules will bankcrupt everybody

EPA OKs fuel-cell car production

Can you afford a quarter million dollars for a fuel cell powered
automobile, then at least 10% per year to maintain its consumable
components? Forcing 10% zero emission cars down the manufacturers' throats
will bankcrupt them as well as us consumers. My advice to the car makers
is to pull out of California completely and let the new car supply dry up.
Give the State two or three years and they will beg them to return to the
market with the makers in the driver seat.

So far, the makers have been meekly gone along with the State's program.
They'd better wise up.

 

California has not learned anything over the years about setting
themselves up to be raped. They did it with the energy industry in the
90's, and several years earlier, the entire auto insurance industry
pulled out leaving it's consumers stranded when they forced
pie-in-the-sky insurance regulations down the state's throat.
California's liberalism is a form of insanity (doing the same thing over
and over and expecting a different result).

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

Hi...

Good grief, consider the source. Smoke and mirrors from double-speak
spin-doctoring politicians.

I'm getting on in years, and easily confused, but no bad that I can't
figure out what "partial zero" is. Oh wait, I really can't

I might be able to with the 10% zero is. 10% of zero is zero, so...
Ah heck, I give up.

And I'm 110% sure

Happy holidays, everybody.

Ken

 

....by Republipedo/corporate shills like Republipedo Governor Pete "The
Weenie" Wilson. The "brown outs" were the work of Dick Cheney toadies
(like Ken Lay) IMMEDIATELY after Cheney's "energy meeting," from
which the plot to spring the "brown out" fiasco was decided to be a
great tool for which to get Gray Davis recalled and put AHHHnuld in
there to do their bidding. Henry Waxman (D-Sherman Oaks) has already
committed to holding hearings WITH subpoenas and with all testimony
under oath about the Cheney energy giveaway meeting. Already, with
Cheney bristling at the suggesting that he will be forced to testify,
plans are being made to deal harshly with the expected recalictrance
and bravura to come from the megalomanical vice president.

Now that AHHHHnuld has rolled over on them after getting his ass
kicked by the elctorate a year ago, the Texan oil and energy cartel
operators are panicking...as are all right wingtards, now that they're
completely out of power in Congress. AHHHHnuld, the energy industry's
hand picked boy in the recall fiasco, is now kicking them in the ass
and has said he will veto any legislation of repeal the "zero
emissions" mandate. Someone has to kick the dumb fuckers in the auto
industry in the ass, as well as the idiot public. "No, you can NOT
have another 1 ton V-10 pickup truck. They will cause the ruination
of the country, and who cares if you need a 4 wheeled prick extension?
The good of the nation comes first."

Another right winger myth/lie...NO one left the market except some
fly-by-nighters who were already ready to be shut down for fraud. ALL
the big players sell auto insurance in CA...State Farm, Allstate,
Farmers, you name 'em, we have 'em, plus a few more that specialize in
CA auto insurance. An honest company would be stupid and would do a
disservice to their shareholders to ignore the CA auto insurance
market, which is the source of more than a THIRD the profit for State
Farm last year.

Odd...how come, even with all the illegal aliens causing about 40% of
all damaging/injurious collisions, our rates are still below those in
Pennsylvania, New Jersey, New York , Illinois, Michigan and a host of
others? I pay a paltry $500 a year...for THREE vehicles.

Ever since the election, you look funny when you drool while typing.
Perhaps Haldol will help get you through your delusionary psychosis.
OxyContin seems to be working for Flush Limpdick...he hasn't slit his
wrists...yet, anyway.

 

That was weird.

As an IS worker for a Southwetern electric utility I can say authoritatively
that California's power problems were caused by a combination of their
shortsightedness and neglect of electric infrastructure - no conspiracy
theory needed.

You recall California was in the forefront of electric deregulation. They
made some rookie mistakes and compounded it with political twists. Most
critical was that California power plants were not allowed to sell to
California. With the results of that folly known, FERC now has national
rules that power producers and power providers must be entirely separate and
unaffiliated - a huge improvement over California's approach. The company I
work for has split in two, as most electric utilities have. I work for the
larger company, the "energy services" company, while the generation company
of the same name and same parent company is "generation." I work in "shared
services" and am what FERC calls a "conduit" employee. I face serious
federal prison time if I leak any information between the two companies that
isn't available to all US electric producers and providers.

California compounded their error when their Public Utilities Commission
prevented the power providers from entering into long term contracts with
power producers, thereby forcing electricity to be bought on much more
expensive spot and short term markets. The PUC prevented the providers from
passing on the increased costs to their customers, bringing both SCE and
PG&E to the very brink of bankruptcy. Both were put on a "cash only" basis
with power producers, which guaranteed electricity shortages in California.

The transmission corridors between California and neighboring states have
also been neglected several decades too many, as has the transmission
infrastructure within California itself. There is actually enough generation
capacity here in the West, but not enough power can get to the population
centers at peak load. Funny how nobody wants 750 KV transmission lines in
their back yard.

I guess the truth is a lot more boring than the conspiracy theories, though.

Mike

 

So....., whats the latest on this from 2002?

News Item:

ASHINGTON -- Documents showing Enron Corp. sought to rig energy prices
in California escalated pressure Tuesday for a wider investigation of
energy market manipulation, sending tremors through the industry.

The Federal Energy Regulatory Commission on Tuesday ordered all energy
trading companies to preserve documents dealing with their tactics,
including internal memos. The action came a day after the release of an
internal memo detailing Enron's trading ploys, which said other
companies had adopted similar tactics.

Despite denials of any market manipulation, energy companies saw their
stocks plunge as much as 17% in anticipation of increased scrutiny of
their operations. On Capitol Hill, lawmakers called for a criminal
investigation, more congressional hearings and new regulation of the
kind of energy trades Enron conducted. White House spokesman Ari
Fleischer expressed confidence that federal regulators would
"vigorously" investigate the new revelations.

The Justice Department said in a statement that its Enron task force "is
continuing to actively investigate a wide variety of matters concerning
the conduct of Enron Corp. and individuals and entities associated with it."

FERC on Monday released memos detailing strategies used by Enron traders
to artificially inflate energy prices during California's energy crisis
in 2000-2001, when Enron traders operated in a newly deregulated market.

FERC officials declined to comment, citing the continuing investigation.

Some of the trading schemes discussed in the Enron memos could answer a
long-standing mystery in the California power crisis, said Robert
McCullough, an Portland, Ore.-based energy consultant.

In winter 2001, the California Independent System Operator--the agency
running the power grid under deregulation--called for rolling blackouts
in Northern California, citing a shortage brought on by congested power
lines serving the area.

However, the Bonneville Power Administration, which co-owns lines from
Oregon into Northern California, insisted that there was a large amount
of unused capacity, McCullough said.

The newly released memos detail one Enron strategy that called for
giving Cal-ISO false signals about Enron's anticipated "load," or the
amount of power its customers would require.

The idea, roughly, was that on a day of high demand, Enron would
exaggerate the amount of power its customers would need. Cal-ISO,
worried about meeting demand, would then offer to pay a premium to
energy providers that agreed to send extra power.

Enron would readily comply by reducing its usage--reaping the benefit of
cutting back power it never really needed in the first place.

"Did this happen during the blackouts?" McCullough asked. "I don't know,
but by God, we need to investigate," he said.

Enron officials had roundly denied any market manipulation, or "gaming,"
during the energy crisis. The Houston company, under new leadership
since its collapse last fall, released the documents to federal
investigators Monday but said it could not vouch for their accuracy.

 

<snip for space>

Thank you. No doubt Dick will refuse to testify. Again.

 

My original statement was "California has not learned anything over the
years about setting themselves up to be raped." Thank you for
confirming that.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

All you've done is confirmed my original statement, to wit: "California
has not learned anything over the years about setting themselves up to
be raped." I did not say that the energy companies didn't take
advantage of the situation, did I. I simply was saying that Califronia,
in it's infinite stupidity, set themselves up to be taken advantage of -
to be raped. Thanks for reinforcing the idea.

It's equivalent to a girl walking down a city street naked at night and
lying down spread-eagle, and then screaming "RAPE" and playing the
victim when she gets raped. Sure the guy had no right to rape her, but
there is little sympathy for that girl. Hence my use of the word "rape"
in the analogy. But you knew that.

On the insurance stuff, you are not even talking about the time period
that I was talking about. In the 90's, CA legislated some ridiculous
regulation on the auto insurance industry (for example that they had to
continue to insure customers regardless of driving record, and all at
the same rates) that forced several major - not fly-by-night - companies
to pull out of California for all new business. It has nothing to do
with any present auto insurance business going on in the present. But,
again, you knew that - you just want to obfuscate.

Facts is facts. California repeats history by pretending not to learn
from it. Therefore it sets itself up once again to be raped, but will
want to play the victim. Sorry - no sympathy from me.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

We haven't "learned anything," yet it hasn't happened again.



The post was in response to this:

"As an IS worker for a Southwetern electric utility I can say
authoritatively
that California's power problems were caused by a combination of their
shortsightedness and neglect of electric infrastructure - no conspiracy
theory needed." [end quote]

Matter of fact, there wouldn't be lawsuits settled (Sempra 377 mil for
ex) if there was no conspiracy. Is that the philosophy of "market
forces" ideologues that every company or person with a vulnerability
deserves to be "raped?"

 

How nice it is to point at 'others' playing the same kind of 'hardball'
and crying FOUL...

YES, the corp's played hardball, and who knows what conspiracies really
went on
{ThereARE TWO reasons to settle, you know}

Go BACK to the basics and the causitive effects and will find the same
old never-ending mantra...
"NOT IN MY BACKYARD!'

We only have to look east to the Kennedy's to see this doesnt just happen
in california.

"Gimme my cake... and yours too... and bake it 'over there'!"

 

The obvious message was that I can't feel but so sorry for idiots who
know the likely outcome of their actions and insist on doing it anyway
and then want to play the victim. Nowhere did I excuse the actions of
the utilities any more than I would excuse the person who raped the girl
who was asking for it. Learn to read - and, while you're at it, to
think *while* you read. And honesty has to be thrown in there somewhere
- that's three things to manage all at one time. Think you can do it?

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

Point acknowledged. We all have our favorite perspective. I thought I
recalled some new generators being built in California so I Googled a
bit and came up with this:

http://tinyurl.com/yx5a4g

Snippet:

Why is our power grid in such dreadful condition? Chronic neglect by the
state's three investor-owned utilities — Southern California Edison, San
Diego Gas & Electric and Pacific Gas & Electric.

Even with a changing regulatory environment, the utilities retain
control over the transmission and distribution of electricity — and the
responsibility to plan for and build new power lines. But they have
failed to modernize the grid. In short, the utilities have violated the
publics trust.

Utility spending to upgrade and maintain the system has steadily
declined since the 1970s. The effects go far beyond July's outages. In
February, Cal-ISO contended that a new high-voltage transmission line
from gas-turbine generators in the Palo Verde area west of Phoenix would
deliver enough electricity to enhance reliability, lower bills and
encourage the development of renewable energy. Tellingly, this project,
approved in the 1980s, has languished in the planning stages for 20 years.

Full article: (please don't shoot the messenger)

http://tinyurl.com/yx5a4g

 

In other words, yes.

Excuse? LOL.

Long before you'll ever master a civil discussion without adolescent put
downs.

 

Ah jeeeez!

Want me to post an article on where those along a California powerline
upgrade are suing to stop it?

You believe what you want... when you're half-right, that's apparently
enough for you.

If you want to hold util's feet to the fire, you dont go in half-cocked
with half-baked mantra's and truisms.

 

OK - so you really do not have critical thinking skills. No use
pursuing this. You insist on saying that I am saying that California
deserved to be raped when what I said was that I have no sympathy for
someone who sets them selves up to be raped and then wants to play the
victim. Don't equate the two in your mind and then accuse me of
equating the two. See below re: reading/thinking/honesty.

??

I'll say it again: "Nowhere did I excuse the actions of the utilities
any more than I would excuse the person who raped the girl who was
asking for it." There - why don't you deal directly with that instead
of trying to divert attention with your own adolescent, meaningless
response.

It's hard to avoid it when the other person's thinking doesn't rise
above that level. To you, any criticism of yourself would generate an
accusation of adolescent put down. How else do you want me to say you
lack critical thinking skills and are intellectually dishonest?

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

Sure. I'd be interested in that.

How is that apparent? Why the insults?

Sounds reasonable. Did I post a mantra? Half baked truism?

 

Must be, you continue.

Gee, free psychological and intellectual analysis on Usenet. Heh, quick
and priced right, as usual. Buh bye, Billy.

 

One doesn't need a psychology degree to spot intellectual dishonesty.
Another attempt at diversion on your part rather than to actually
discuss the issue honestly. I'll say it for the third time: "Nowhere
did I excuse the actions of the utilities any more than I would excuse
the person who raped the girl who was asking for it."

So the point is still not missed by your attempt at diversion: I don't
have sympathy for people (or states) who knowingly (i.e., knowing that
there are evil people out there who will be glad to take advantage of
them) put themselves into a situation that pretty much guarantees a
raping and play the victim after the fact. Nor does it excuse the
actions of the rapist (for the 4th time). So don't try to twist my
words to say otherwise.

Yeah - you too - you have a nice day.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

It's hard to avoid it when the other person's thinking doesn't rise above

Bill you may be bright, but you type like a moron. And thanks, all of you,
for cross-posting this lovely thread in auto newsgroups, where it's so
roundly appreciated.