Bendix ABS-10

Just picked up a 92 Caravan for a hauler. Looks and drives pretty good.
Then discovered the brake booster runs almost constantly and is blowing
back through the reservoir. The dreaded Bendix ABS-10. 115k miles.
Google search not much help...

1. self-replacement - any tips, sources for new units?

2. what are dealers getting for replacement these days?

3. what leverage do I have with dealers, given recalls/lawsuits/blahblah

tia
m

 

The 3 parts that are waarranted for lifetime are, the pump,the complete ABS
assembly if it is not repairable (scored cyl or if a solonoid is bad)and
the piston assembly, It takes a special set of gauges to diagnois the
system.Normally the pump runs continuously for a couple reasons, the piston
assembly does not hold pressure (recall part), the pump is bad (also recall
part) or if the low side filter is stopped up (not recall part), if the
accumulator is at fault it will not hold pressure and everytime you hit the
brake pedal the pump will kick on (not a recall part).If chrysler does pay
for the parts that are bad, I highly recommend replacing the low side filter
and the dual function pressure switch if you plan on keeping the vehicle,
those 2 parts along are about $200.00
good luck
Glenn Beasley
Chrysler Tech

 

Thanks.

I take it, then, that I should try to get the dealer to condemn the
whole unit to get it replaced under warantee?

 

You really need to take this to the dealer. Ever since the lifetime
warranty/recall
came out on that system, when people have had problems they have taken them
to
the dealers. As a result the independents seldom see them anymore. In fact
the
secondary market is flooded with bendix 10 manuals. The recall has also
killed the
reman/rebuild market for these.

In all liklihood, by the time you add in the credits that the warranty gives
you,
and subtract the usual overcharging over an independent that the dealer
does,
the cost to have a dealer fix it is probably going to be a wash with that of
an
independent anyway. (if the system wasn't warrantied and you took it to an
independent, that is)

Put this down to a lesson, always research before buying used. The ABS
system
problems for these years are well documented and anyone with much experience
with Chrysler minivans would have probably taken a pass on the van you
bought,
unless of course you got it at an absolute dirt cheap price.

Ted

 

Yer right.

But I'm an old dog (can't be taught new tricks) and haven't yet learned
that the days of pulling a wet master cylinder and rebuilding it at home
is no longer an option.

 

If you could get that to happen, you would get all for free, good luck

 

No such luck. It's gonna cost me $500. Dealer said they'd replace the
whole unit for $1700.

Remember when a master cylinder rebuild kit cost $7.50?

Technology sucks!

 

Well, once you get the thing running and it saves your ass on a wet street,
then come back and tell us how much better the 4-wheel drum brake
setups are. ;-)

$500 isn't bad if the purchase price of the Caravan wasn't that high,
and the body is straight.

Ted

 

It has drums at the rear anyway, which is no big deal as the rears do
nothing but go along for the ride.

ABS will stop shorter than locked wheels, but longer than a properly
modulated pedal. It is only handy for drivers that panic.

Yeah, other than the stoppers the van is in pretty good shape. It just
grinds me that a system that should be - and can be - extremely simple
and reliable is a monstrously complicated leaky unrepairable unreliable pos.

F1 is the most sophisticated automotive technology on the planet. Take a
look at the brakes. Other than 4 pot calipers and carbon rotors, it's
the same system I was racing with in the early '60s.

Technology sucks.

 

I agree Ted but this was a piss poor designed system from the start, The
hydraulic pressure in the pump and piston was always under 2000psi, vehicle
running or not, underhood temperatures and all the elements caused this
system to fail miserably, in 94 we had the bendix 4 come out, that was
pressure on demand and I have seen very few problems

 

Except that only the best of professional race drivers can modulate
their brakes with sufficient competence to beat ABS. And then only on a
perfect surface. Put one side of the car on pavement and the other on
wet pavement, snow, ice, etc. and ABS will win every time.

No, most technology is fine. Some isn't, but most is. What sucks is
the fact that most people don't understand it.


Matt

 

Hardly. I'll train you to beat yer ABS in 15 minutes. And with practice,
you'll never get into yer ABS again, even in a panic stop.

Go to an SCCA drivers school and watch the novices in street car classes
where disabling the ABS is against the rules. The ones going deepest
into the corners never activate the ABS.

ABS is like synchros, nice for the soccer moms but a waste for the drivers.

And it's expensive, overly complex, and of marginal value even to those
that don't want to learn to drive.

 

Yes, and I suppose you could also adjust your spark advance faster than
the computer controlled system, and you'd like to return to manual
mixture controls and chokes...

I don't know if I can find it now, but I saw a test several years ago
where lots of people said they could stop a motorcycle without ABS
faster than one with ABS. They ran a test with several magazine editors
who are all fairly proficient riders and a couple were regular racers.
I believe that only one of the racers beat the ABS equipped bike and
that was on dry pavement. Add in some water, sand, etc., and the ABS
bike won EVERY time. And it won almost all of the time even on dry
pavement.

I don't know if a similar test has been done with cars, but I'll bet the
result would be the same.

And driving on a fairly smooth, dry, paved race track is nothing like
driving in the real world with wet and oil roads, cases where one lane
is dry and the other is black ice, etc. No human can beat ABS in these
real conditions as you can't modulate each wheel separately as can the
ABS system. So it matters not how much braking skill you have.

The only place I've seen, both from reading and from personal
experience, where ABS falls short is in conditions of deep snow or very
loose material like deep sand. In these situations, the locked tire is
worse than "almost" locked tire, falls apart. If the tire is able to
push up a mound of snow or sand by being locked, then the car will
actually stop shorter. However, on most other surfaces a wheel that
locks will lose traction compared to one at incipient lock-up.


Matt

 

Manual advance was replaced by mechanical (centrifugal) advance, which
was simple, cheap, and reliable if you knew how to set yer timing and
gap. Then came crank fire with simple, reliable electronics (the racers'
choice was the Chrysler unit, btw). I'm not convinced that the ECU is
any great leap forward, unless you are able to program it yerself.

I don't know anything about bikes, except that they stop on one wheel. Pass.

It's been done many times on cars, and ABS loses every time.

You haven't done much racing. We race in the wet. Oil (and coolant) and
dirt/gravel is a constant hazard, and if you have both wheels on the
pavement, yer not taking the corner right. Race cars (other than
showroom stock, IT, and similar "street legal" classes) do not use ABS.
Not in pro racing, not in Sunday afternoon amateur racing.

The justification for ABS is that it does work in an understeering car
while cornering. On yer next trip to the grocery, watch the brake lights
in front of you and you will see that most drivers turn in and apex far
too early and continue to brake way beyond the apex, usually all the way
to the exit of the turn. ABS works very very well under that condition.
But ya don't have to be Sebastien Loeb to know that that's not how to go
around corners. ABS is just a poor substitute for minimal driving skill.

 

Trouble is the optimum timing depends on more than just RPM. Yes, I
know that there were also vacuum driven distributors to allow factoring
in MP, but optimum timing depends on more than just RPM and MP. My
point is that automatic controls, well designed, will beat a human every
time. I don't if the automation is mechanical or electrical/electronic.

In the case of spark timing, since it depends on several factors, only
two of which I mentioned above, electronic control is the way to go.

Do you have a reference? Under what conditions were the tests done?
What was the skill level of the drivers?

Probably because the rules don't allow them. They've been introduced
and subsequently banned in manner classes of racing, Formula One being
an example. They gave too much of an advantage to the teams using them
and the driver's machismo got in the way as well.

This is one of the best discussions I've seen on ABS systems.
http://www.geocities.com/nosro/abs_faq/

I personally am not a big fan of them, but only because I live in a
climate that has snow on the roads for 5 or so months each year. ABS is
almost hazardous on snow, at least until you get used to it. The
stopping distances of my minivans with ABS are much longer than my truck
which has conventional brakes. On hard surfaces though, I've rarely
noticed ABS being a handicap. And if you are really good at threshold
braking, the ABS won't engage anyway so a really sharp driver won't even
know it is there. And if they do feel it kick in, then they aren't as
good at braking as they thought.

I'm not saying ABS is a substitute for better driving skills. I'm
saying that ABS can do things that a human simply can't do, such as
modulate the braking at each wheel independently to cover situations
where each wheel is seeing a different mu. No way you can do that with
one brake pedal. And if I gave you four brake pedals, you couldn't do
it fast enough to be effective.

Matt

 

If you program it yerself, yes.

F1 has never used ABS. Traction control, which is a different beast, has
been outlawed. ABS is allowed but not used in any other form of racing,
to my knowledge. WRC uses very sophisticated traction control, but the
handbrake overrides the TC. Most racers also use cockpit adjustable bias.

Driver's machismo? I've never seen a racer that would not jump at any
chance for the slightest edge. And none use ABS.

It is a substitute for driving skills. ABS only works when the pedal is
full on. Control of the braking function is given over 100% to the ABS.
There are some things that a human can actually do better than
electronics, and braking is one of them.

 

No argument there, I agree with that. My own van is Bendix 4 although I've
never felt or seen the ABS come on. (my wife drives it mostly) My only
beef
is that Chrysler never released specs for it so OTC wasn't able to support
Chrysler ABS in their scantool cartridges.

The Bendix 10 systems are very weird, must have been a junior engineer
with no experience that did that design.

Ted

 

Ted , when chrysler first introduced the bendix 10 system we had no specs,
no special tools or parts to repair them, we had to sell those units
complete for such a long time for a price of about 1500.00. it was
ridiculous. the only time i felt my ABS kick in was when i was letting my
wife and son drive the van, i wantd them to experience what it felt like
when they went inot an antilock brake situation. it is a very good system,