Bendix ABS-10

Discussion in 'General Motoring' started by mike gray, Nov 14, 2004.

  1. mike gray

    mike gray Guest

    Just picked up a 92 Caravan for a hauler. Looks and drives pretty good.
    Then discovered the brake booster runs almost constantly and is blowing
    back through the reservoir. The dreaded Bendix ABS-10. 115k miles.
    Google search not much help...

    1. self-replacement - any tips, sources for new units?

    2. what are dealers getting for replacement these days?

    3. what leverage do I have with dealers, given recalls/lawsuits/blahblah

    mike gray, Nov 14, 2004
  2. mike gray

    maxpower Guest

    The 3 parts that are waarranted for lifetime are, the pump,the complete ABS
    assembly if it is not repairable (scored cyl or if a solonoid is bad)and
    the piston assembly, It takes a special set of gauges to diagnois the
    system.Normally the pump runs continuously for a couple reasons, the piston
    assembly does not hold pressure (recall part), the pump is bad (also recall
    part) or if the low side filter is stopped up (not recall part), if the
    accumulator is at fault it will not hold pressure and everytime you hit the
    brake pedal the pump will kick on (not a recall part).If chrysler does pay
    for the parts that are bad, I highly recommend replacing the low side filter
    and the dual function pressure switch if you plan on keeping the vehicle,
    those 2 parts along are about $200.00
    good luck
    Glenn Beasley
    Chrysler Tech
    maxpower, Nov 14, 2004
  3. mike gray

    mike gray Guest


    I take it, then, that I should try to get the dealer to condemn the
    whole unit to get it replaced under warantee?
    mike gray, Nov 15, 2004
  4. You really need to take this to the dealer. Ever since the lifetime
    came out on that system, when people have had problems they have taken them
    the dealers. As a result the independents seldom see them anymore. In fact
    secondary market is flooded with bendix 10 manuals. The recall has also
    killed the
    reman/rebuild market for these.

    In all liklihood, by the time you add in the credits that the warranty gives
    and subtract the usual overcharging over an independent that the dealer
    the cost to have a dealer fix it is probably going to be a wash with that of
    independent anyway. (if the system wasn't warrantied and you took it to an
    independent, that is)

    Put this down to a lesson, always research before buying used. The ABS
    problems for these years are well documented and anyone with much experience
    with Chrysler minivans would have probably taken a pass on the van you
    unless of course you got it at an absolute dirt cheap price.

    Ted Mittelstaedt, Nov 16, 2004
  5. mike gray

    mike gray Guest

    Yer right.

    But I'm an old dog (can't be taught new tricks) and haven't yet learned
    that the days of pulling a wet master cylinder and rebuilding it at home
    is no longer an option.
    mike gray, Nov 16, 2004
  6. mike gray

    maxpower Guest

    If you could get that to happen, you would get all for free, good luck
    maxpower, Nov 16, 2004
  7. mike gray

    mike gray Guest

    No such luck. It's gonna cost me $500. Dealer said they'd replace the
    whole unit for $1700.

    Remember when a master cylinder rebuild kit cost $7.50?

    Technology sucks!
    mike gray, Nov 16, 2004
  8. Well, once you get the thing running and it saves your ass on a wet street,
    then come back and tell us how much better the 4-wheel drum brake
    setups are. ;-)

    $500 isn't bad if the purchase price of the Caravan wasn't that high,
    and the body is straight.

    Ted Mittelstaedt, Nov 17, 2004
  9. mike gray

    mike gray Guest

    It has drums at the rear anyway, which is no big deal as the rears do
    nothing but go along for the ride.

    ABS will stop shorter than locked wheels, but longer than a properly
    modulated pedal. It is only handy for drivers that panic.

    Yeah, other than the stoppers the van is in pretty good shape. It just
    grinds me that a system that should be - and can be - extremely simple
    and reliable is a monstrously complicated leaky unrepairable unreliable pos.

    F1 is the most sophisticated automotive technology on the planet. Take a
    look at the brakes. Other than 4 pot calipers and carbon rotors, it's
    the same system I was racing with in the early '60s.

    Technology sucks.
    mike gray, Nov 17, 2004
  10. mike gray

    maxpower Guest

    I agree Ted but this was a piss poor designed system from the start, The
    hydraulic pressure in the pump and piston was always under 2000psi, vehicle
    running or not, underhood temperatures and all the elements caused this
    system to fail miserably, in 94 we had the bendix 4 come out, that was
    pressure on demand and I have seen very few problems
    maxpower, Nov 17, 2004
  11. mike gray

    Matt Whiting Guest

    Except that only the best of professional race drivers can modulate
    their brakes with sufficient competence to beat ABS. And then only on a
    perfect surface. Put one side of the car on pavement and the other on
    wet pavement, snow, ice, etc. and ABS will win every time.

    No, most technology is fine. Some isn't, but most is. What sucks is
    the fact that most people don't understand it.

    Matt Whiting, Nov 17, 2004
  12. mike gray

    mike gray Guest

    Hardly. I'll train you to beat yer ABS in 15 minutes. And with practice,
    you'll never get into yer ABS again, even in a panic stop.

    Go to an SCCA drivers school and watch the novices in street car classes
    where disabling the ABS is against the rules. The ones going deepest
    into the corners never activate the ABS.

    ABS is like synchros, nice for the soccer moms but a waste for the drivers.

    And it's expensive, overly complex, and of marginal value even to those
    that don't want to learn to drive.
    mike gray, Nov 18, 2004
  13. mike gray

    Matt Whiting Guest

    Yes, and I suppose you could also adjust your spark advance faster than
    the computer controlled system, and you'd like to return to manual
    mixture controls and chokes...

    I don't know if I can find it now, but I saw a test several years ago
    where lots of people said they could stop a motorcycle without ABS
    faster than one with ABS. They ran a test with several magazine editors
    who are all fairly proficient riders and a couple were regular racers.
    I believe that only one of the racers beat the ABS equipped bike and
    that was on dry pavement. Add in some water, sand, etc., and the ABS
    bike won EVERY time. And it won almost all of the time even on dry

    I don't know if a similar test has been done with cars, but I'll bet the
    result would be the same.

    And driving on a fairly smooth, dry, paved race track is nothing like
    driving in the real world with wet and oil roads, cases where one lane
    is dry and the other is black ice, etc. No human can beat ABS in these
    real conditions as you can't modulate each wheel separately as can the
    ABS system. So it matters not how much braking skill you have.

    The only place I've seen, both from reading and from personal
    experience, where ABS falls short is in conditions of deep snow or very
    loose material like deep sand. In these situations, the locked tire is
    worse than "almost" locked tire, falls apart. If the tire is able to
    push up a mound of snow or sand by being locked, then the car will
    actually stop shorter. However, on most other surfaces a wheel that
    locks will lose traction compared to one at incipient lock-up.

    Matt Whiting, Nov 18, 2004
  14. mike gray

    mike gray Guest

    Manual advance was replaced by mechanical (centrifugal) advance, which
    was simple, cheap, and reliable if you knew how to set yer timing and
    gap. Then came crank fire with simple, reliable electronics (the racers'
    choice was the Chrysler unit, btw). I'm not convinced that the ECU is
    any great leap forward, unless you are able to program it yerself.
    I don't know anything about bikes, except that they stop on one wheel. Pass.
    It's been done many times on cars, and ABS loses every time.
    You haven't done much racing. We race in the wet. Oil (and coolant) and
    dirt/gravel is a constant hazard, and if you have both wheels on the
    pavement, yer not taking the corner right. Race cars (other than
    showroom stock, IT, and similar "street legal" classes) do not use ABS.
    Not in pro racing, not in Sunday afternoon amateur racing.
    The justification for ABS is that it does work in an understeering car
    while cornering. On yer next trip to the grocery, watch the brake lights
    in front of you and you will see that most drivers turn in and apex far
    too early and continue to brake way beyond the apex, usually all the way
    to the exit of the turn. ABS works very very well under that condition.
    But ya don't have to be Sebastien Loeb to know that that's not how to go
    around corners. ABS is just a poor substitute for minimal driving skill.
    mike gray, Nov 18, 2004
  15. mike gray

    Matt Whiting Guest

    Trouble is the optimum timing depends on more than just RPM. Yes, I
    know that there were also vacuum driven distributors to allow factoring
    in MP, but optimum timing depends on more than just RPM and MP. My
    point is that automatic controls, well designed, will beat a human every
    time. I don't if the automation is mechanical or electrical/electronic.

    In the case of spark timing, since it depends on several factors, only
    two of which I mentioned above, electronic control is the way to go.

    Do you have a reference? Under what conditions were the tests done?
    What was the skill level of the drivers?

    Probably because the rules don't allow them. They've been introduced
    and subsequently banned in manner classes of racing, Formula One being
    an example. They gave too much of an advantage to the teams using them
    and the driver's machismo got in the way as well.

    This is one of the best discussions I've seen on ABS systems.

    I personally am not a big fan of them, but only because I live in a
    climate that has snow on the roads for 5 or so months each year. ABS is
    almost hazardous on snow, at least until you get used to it. The
    stopping distances of my minivans with ABS are much longer than my truck
    which has conventional brakes. On hard surfaces though, I've rarely
    noticed ABS being a handicap. And if you are really good at threshold
    braking, the ABS won't engage anyway so a really sharp driver won't even
    know it is there. And if they do feel it kick in, then they aren't as
    good at braking as they thought.

    I'm not saying ABS is a substitute for better driving skills. I'm
    saying that ABS can do things that a human simply can't do, such as
    modulate the braking at each wheel independently to cover situations
    where each wheel is seeing a different mu. No way you can do that with
    one brake pedal. And if I gave you four brake pedals, you couldn't do
    it fast enough to be effective.

    Matt Whiting, Nov 18, 2004
  16. mike gray

    mike gray Guest

    If you program it yerself, yes.
    F1 has never used ABS. Traction control, which is a different beast, has
    been outlawed. ABS is allowed but not used in any other form of racing,
    to my knowledge. WRC uses very sophisticated traction control, but the
    handbrake overrides the TC. Most racers also use cockpit adjustable bias.

    Driver's machismo? I've never seen a racer that would not jump at any
    chance for the slightest edge. And none use ABS.
    It is a substitute for driving skills. ABS only works when the pedal is
    full on. Control of the braking function is given over 100% to the ABS.
    There are some things that a human can actually do better than
    electronics, and braking is one of them.
    mike gray, Nov 19, 2004
  17. No argument there, I agree with that. My own van is Bendix 4 although I've
    never felt or seen the ABS come on. (my wife drives it mostly) My only
    is that Chrysler never released specs for it so OTC wasn't able to support
    Chrysler ABS in their scantool cartridges.

    The Bendix 10 systems are very weird, must have been a junior engineer
    with no experience that did that design.

    Ted Mittelstaedt, Nov 19, 2004
  18. mike gray

    maxpower Guest

    Ted , when chrysler first introduced the bendix 10 system we had no specs,
    no special tools or parts to repair them, we had to sell those units
    complete for such a long time for a price of about 1500.00. it was
    ridiculous. the only time i felt my ABS kick in was when i was letting my
    wife and son drive the van, i wantd them to experience what it felt like
    when they went inot an antilock brake situation. it is a very good system,
    maxpower, Nov 19, 2004
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