Autm. car: Put in Neutral at Red Traffic Lights?

Discussion in 'General Motoring' started by Christian, Feb 20, 2004.

  1. Christian

    Christian Guest

    I would like to know your opinion about the fact to put the gear in
    (N) Neutral at the red traffic lights or just keep pressed the brake
    in (D) Drive?
    I sow many people change from D to N during this time.

    When I drove a classic car (manual), in the past, I used to put the
    gear in neutral also during the red traffic lights, of couse the
    transmission system is total different.

    My actual car is a Voyager 89, 4 cyls, 2.5 tbi.

    Thanks for you comments,
    Chris
     
    Christian, Feb 20, 2004
    #1
  2. Christian

    Bill 2 Guest

    Shifting into Neutral may cause extra transmission wear because it will
    downshift to 1st when you stop, then shift to neutral, then back to 1st when
    you want to go. It would be minimal but it is a factor. You could shift into
    neutral as you approach, but you won't be in gear if you need it.

    However if the wait will be long, it could be beneficial to shift to
    neutral.
     
    Bill 2, Feb 20, 2004
    #2
  3. Christian

    Rick Merrill Guest

    I think Bill is right about the wear being greater if you shift to
    neutral at a red light. But you did not say WHY you were asking!
    (Are you trying to avoid unexpected accelleration?) - RM
     
    Rick Merrill, Feb 20, 2004
    #3
  4. Christian

    Ted Guest

    Dunno about wear, but.... it is very dangerous to take your foot off the
    brake while waiting at a traffic signal,, someone only needs to tap you (5
    mph or so)to drive you into another vehicle, or worse into the intersection
    ,,,, neutral,, I don't care, but keep your foot on that brake and your eyes
    open !!

    Just my $.02
     
    Ted, Feb 20, 2004
    #4
  5. Christian

    jdoe Guest

    Don't waste your time. It will cause excess wear.
    Larry
     
    jdoe, Feb 20, 2004
    #5
  6. I see no practical benefit from doing this. If anything, the extra
    shifting will wear out the transmission faster. I can't think of
    anything off-hand that wears out more from being in gear at a stop. The
    TC is dragging a little, but nothing is wearing in it.

    A manual is different as you are wearing the throw-out bearing sitting
    with the clutch depressed for a long period of time. Plus your foot
    gets tired if you are driving a very big truck.


    Matt
     
    Matthew S. Whiting, Feb 20, 2004
    #6
  7. Christian

    Mike Hall Guest

    In some parts of the world, the recommendation is to place the vehicle into
    neutral and apply the parking brake.. this procedure must be followed during
    a driving test.. however, most after having passed said test just depress
    the clutch and brake pedal.. with auto transmission, most people just keep
    the brake depressed at lights because the stop will be relatively short, and
    one of the main reasons for having auto trans in the first place is to avoid
    changing in and out of gear.. the problem with leaving the vehicle in drive
    is that if you are rear ended, the jolt might make you take pressure off the
    brake pedal, and you will 'power' forwards.. best is to leave in drive, but
    use the parking brake if it is the type where the lever is between the
    seats.. for long stops, place the vehicle in 'park'.. do whatever you feel
    is right for you
     
    Mike Hall, Feb 21, 2004
    #7
  8. I've never seen, heard (before now) or read a recommendation to use the
    parking brake when in traffic. What parts of the world recommend that?
    I can't imagine something more stupid than that. If you are pulled
    off to the side of the road and parking, then, yes, apply the parking
    brake. However, not in traffic, unless you are backed up for a wreck or
    something and know that you will be there a long time. However, the
    question was waiting at traffic lights and that is not the place to use
    the parking brake.


    Matt
     
    Matthew S. Whiting, Feb 21, 2004
    #8
  9. Christian

    Mike Hall Guest

    In the UK, it is known as a 'hand'brake, and they do recommend that it is
    used whenever the vehicle is brought to a halt.. the premis is that with the
    handbrake applied, the vehicle can't move in any direction inadvertantly
    unless great force is applied..
     
    Mike Hall, Feb 21, 2004
    #9
  10. I don't think 89 Voyager's have a hand brake. Yes, a hand actuated
    break is quite different from a typical American style parking break.
    When I had cars with a hand brake, I used it on hills when I had a
    standard transmission, but never felt the need with an automatic. Since
    the OP mentioned an automatic in a vehicle with a foot actuated parking
    brake, I answered in that context.

    I lived an drove in the UK for several months and this recommendation
    doesn't surprise me! :)

    However, the stated premise is bogus. Most hand brakes only operate on
    the rear wheels. Most cars have most of their weight on the front
    wheels. Holding the foot brake provides probably 3X as much resistance
    to motion as does the hand brake. So, if preventing the car from being
    pushed into an intersection is the goal, then holding the foot brake
    firmly is much more effective, and can be released more quickly if the
    driver needs to move quickly to avoid being rear-ended or some such.


    Matt
     
    Matthew S. Whiting, Feb 21, 2004
    #10
  11. Christian

    Mike Hall Guest

    Re. the difference between a US parking and UK handbrake, while the
    positioning and modus operandii may be different, the brake works in
    essentially the same way.. the only reason that the parking brake was/is
    foot operated is because of the bench seat configuration that did not allow
    for the placement of a centre mounted 'easy to get at'
    hand/parking/emergency brake.. the Brit answer for the bench seat
    configuration was the 'Shooting Brake', a manually operated handle and
    trigger system in roughly the same position as the north american foot
    operated parking/emergency brake.. a piece of trivia for you.. Brit Station
    Wagons, known as Estates there (but known as Touring in Euro) were often
    referred to a Shooting Brakes partly because of the type of handbrake used,
    and also because they were favored by the 'country set/shooting/hunting'
    cliques..

    In the manual for my Grand Cherokee, it states that when parking, the
    transmission should be placed in the 'park' position AND the manual brake
    applied.. the park position is not an alternative to the parking brake and
    should not be treated in that way.. but most of us are lazy, and the foot
    operated parking brakes are awkward at best.. in our old S10, I sometimes
    left it with the parking brake applied, and when my wife gotten into it, she
    would 'pop' the hood.. the parking brake release was just above the hood
    release and looked similar.. placement like that does not encourage use of
    the manual brake regardless of what it is called across the world..
    Accepting the smiley, Brits emigrating to Canada do not have to be retested
    if they hold a UK driving licence.. partly due to the colonial links maybe,
    but also because the UK test is tougher than most.. I am not suggesting that
    they are all necessarily better drivers, but they do not have the excuse
    that they were not well informed prior to being allowed to drive.. lol..
    Hand brakes operate on rear wheels because it was thought to be more
    effective to have the driving axle braked, and also because it was easier to
    route a linkage to the fixed axle at the back, regardless of weight
    distribution.. some Italian cars have had front wheel parking brakes, Alfa
    Romeo for example, but they are not the norm..

    Holding the foot brake down is obviously more effective than the pressure
    that can be applied by any manual braking system, but this assumes that
    pressure is still being exerted.. in the event of being rear ended, the
    shock could momentarily cause you to release pressure.. the idea of moving
    forwards quickly to avoid a rear hit is ok as long as nobody is in front of
    you.. a car, truck or rig would be bad enough, but a mother and two kids
    crossing at the lights would be much worse.. that is not to say that a
    handbraked car would not move forwards, but it would not move anything like
    as far or fast as a car in 'drive' and no brakes being applied in the split
    second after the impact..

    Matt, I am not attempting to 'troll' here.. for the most part, I have the
    same bad habits as everybody else.. unfortunately, that does not vindicate
    us in a court when charged with involuntary manslaughter.. the argument that
    we were saving the transmission or the manual brake was just too difficult
    to get at, and in any case, eating a burger and holding a Coke while talking
    on the cellphone was as much as could be coped with at the time of being
    rear ended by someone doing the same plus looking at a map precariously
    balanced on the steering wheel.. I have seen Brits doing just that.. lol..

    My grandfather once said that sometimes pedestrians were not always easy to
    see, and that it was their duty to get out of the way.. I asked him for an
    instance and he came back with a dirty windshield scenario.. when I
    suggested that maybe he owed it to other road users to keep his windshield
    clean, he looked at me quizically.. lol..

    Stay safe, Matt.. and I propose a toast.. let us hope that our laziness and
    bad habits only become a problem when there is nobody around to hit..
    Salut.. :)
     
    Mike Hall, Feb 21, 2004
    #11
  12. | I would like to know your opinion about the fact to put the gear in
    | (N) Neutral at the red traffic lights or just keep pressed the brake
    | in (D) Drive?
    | I sow many people change from D to N during this time.
    |
    | When I drove a classic car (manual), in the past, I used to put the
    | gear in neutral also during the red traffic lights, of couse the
    | transmission system is total different.
    |
    | My actual car is a Voyager 89, 4 cyls, 2.5 tbi.
    |
    | Thanks for you comments,
    | Chris

    Not necessary unless you will be stopped for several minutes (e.g. a accident
    ahead has the street closed). Normal traffic light cycle times, no.
     
    James C. Reeves, Feb 21, 2004
    #12
  13. I think there is quite a significant difference. The console mounted
    hand brake can be easily applied, released and even modulated all with
    one hand. The American style foot parking brake requires the foot to
    apply, the hand to release and isn't easily modulated. The main
    exception is some foot brakes where you apply it with your foot and then
    press it again with your foot to release it. The has the advantage of
    not requiring two limbs to operate, but it still can't be modulated.

    I wasn't commenting on the quality of British drivers, I was commenting
    on some of the ridiculous government requirements in Britain!

    Trouble is, few cars in Japan or the US are RWD. And the minivan in
    question in this thread is FWD.

    Yes, bad driving is not the domain of any one country to be sure. I've
    been in several large cities in Europe as well as cities such as St.
    Petersburg, Russia. I think Russia and Italy probably have the worst
    drivers overall with France not far behind, at least of the places I've
    been in or know something about. I think American drivers are in
    general less skillful than those in Europe, but, IMO, the European drive
    much more aggressively and recklessly and this extra risk taking more
    than offsets any skill advantage.

    And the laws in most countries do not agree with your grandfather.

    Cheers,
    Matt
     
    Matthew S. Whiting, Feb 22, 2004
    #13
  14. Beg to disagree. I have had a foot-operated parking brake in Europe for
    years and much prefer it. (Mercedes only introduced the 'handbrake' in the
    190 because there was no room for a foot-operated one.)

    DAS
    --
    For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
    ---

    [...............]
     
    Dori A Schmetterling, Feb 25, 2004
    #14
  15. Christian

    Christian Guest

    Thank you for your good information and advices.
    Chris
     
    Christian, Feb 25, 2004
    #15
  16. I'm curious, why did you prefer it? I've had cars with both and I find
    the hand brake much more versatile. The foot parking brake really is
    only useful for parking, whereas, the hand brake is useful for parking,
    hill holding, skid practice, etc.


    Matt
     
    Matthew S. Whiting, Feb 26, 2004
    #16
  17. Christian

    Steve Guest

    My experience is that hand brakes aren't much good for ANYTHING. They
    rarely have enough leverage to actually apply the brakes, or are
    adjusted for so much lever travel relative to brake shoe travel (to get
    the needed leverage) that they go out of adjustment in 10,000 miles. At
    the other extreme, foot-brakes rarely DON'T work.

    As for hill holding- better to learn heel-and-toe technique than to fool
    around with a handbrake.
     
    Steve, Mar 1, 2004
    #17
  18. Easy to apply, easy to release. I have been driving automatics for years,
    so hill holding is not so critical, though my newer car (year 2001) does,
    rather disconcertingly, roll back on a hill. I can do hill starts with the
    foot-operated brake. You're not really supposed to hold the car for long on
    a hill, otherwise the clutch would go, no? I don't have many hill starts.

    I don't practise skids.

    Stuff in the tray between the seats doesn't interfere with my grip.

    Ergo, I am satisfied with the foot brake.

    And in case you ask, I frequently rent cars which have manual gear boxes and
    hand brakes. And my older car is an afore-mentioned automatic Merc 190 with
    hand-operated parking break.

    Maybe if I lived in the hills and had a manual transmission I might think
    differently.

    DAS
     
    Dori A Schmetterling, Mar 1, 2004
    #18
  19. Well, you've never had a hand brake that was well designed and/or
    adjusted properly. I could lock the rear wheels with the hand brake in
    my Honda Accord. It was about the only thing in that car that worked
    well, but that's another story! :)

    Heel and toe doesn't work well with a Chevy pickup, but then it lacks a
    hand brake so that doesn't work well either! Luckily, Low gear is so
    low that you'd have to be a real clutz to stall it.


    Matt
     
    Matthew S. Whiting, Mar 1, 2004
    #19
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