a604 Limp, Rebuilt, Sensors replaced, solenoid replaced still Limps!

Hello,

Hello,

I picked up a Dodge stratus (95) with 75,000 miles. I put about 5-6k
on it. Then one day (a very warm day) on the way home from work (40
mile commute) as i was nearing the house it shifted into what I
thought may be limp mode at about 45-50mph. The car nose dived and
started compression breaking after what felt like an inital total loss
of power. I took it the las mile home and tried it after it cooled
down, it went into limp after it warmed back up. So I took it to the
dealership. They told me the Input and output speed sensors were bad
and needed replacing as well as the Throttle Position Sensor. Not
having the $500+ they wanted to do it I took the car home and replaced
the input and outpust speed sensors myself.

I drove the car and all seemed fine, so I took it to work the
following day. On the way to work I was on the freeway and it was
doing fine about 65mph. Then it dropped into limp. I was able to get
the car the remainder of the way to work in limp. At lunch time the
car did fine, no problems. However after work it would not go into 2nd
gear so an expensive tow home.

I then called a local chain tranny shop, they said they could rebuild
the trans for about $1800, I had the car towed over and the problems
began. By thursday they said the car was ready. I asked if they test
drove it and they stated yes. I paid for the repair and left with the
car, and made it about 3 blocks before it went into limp. I took it
back.

To make a long story short;
They rebuilt the thranny for $1800
It still goes into limp when it reaches a hot operating temp.
They say the dropping into limp has again fried the 2nd gear clutches.
The have also replaced the shit solenoid and both input and output
speed sensors as I had.
They remain convinced of it being wiring, I'm not sure because it
seems heat related. The TCM sometime over the life of the car has been
replaced with a remanuf moapr unit.


After a brief wiat for their diagnostic computer he hooked it up, had
some problems getting any readings and finally got code 54 out of it.
Well they had just put new speed sensors in it and so had I before
them!!!!

So he left the diag computer hooked up and took it for a ride. He cam
back 15 mins later, pulled in and hollered for his partner to come
take a ride. He "had never seen anything act like this before".

They took it out after resetting the codes and about 35 mins later
came back. He said it was the damnedst thing, that what was happening
wasnt exactly limp mode. But more like a flat out stall and then a
drop into limp mode. Which pretty much describes it. To me it feels
like your crusing along at say 65, then all of the sudden the car nose
dives, has no power, and after about 1-3 seconds the RPMs kick way up
as the transmission catches its downshift. So to me its like coast
starting a car on a hill get coasting at a good speed and pop the
clutch.

They say the abuse it got test driving has fried the new clutches they
just put in it so it will need another rebuild(under warranty). But
they have no idea what the problem could be. They have now replaced
the solenoid pack and that didnt help. The TCM on the car is not the
factory one but a mopar reconditioned unit so I know that the previous
car owner had replaced that at least once too. They are currently
convinced that wiring is an issue and are trying to find the problem
now that they have a schematic. I've suggested they replace the TCM
and despite the fact I am willing to pay for the part they dont want
me to have to pay for that if it isnt the problem. I'm at a loss, my
wife wants me to dispute the charge with my credit card company and
try to get the car back and take it elsewhere but in light of the
problems I'm not sure anyone else would have any better luck. Are
there any suggestions you have? Some insight?



Help!

 

Does your Stratus have the V6? There was a post on this newsgroop a few
weeks back about a hard-to-troubleshoot stalling problem on an early JA
car with a V6. Turned out to be a wiring problem that cause additional
problems. I would suggest searching the NG. I will try to find it too.

-KM

 

I found it. Search for this:

"1995 Cirrus 2.5L stall condition"

It is a lot of reading, but it would not hurt to check.

-KM

 

Thanks, I read through the thread and its not very reassuring and I
dont see a final resoloution either.

I have gotten one other tip that it could be the Zener Diode on the AC
Clutch going bad and allowing a spike to return through the harness
causing all the shift solenoids to actuate/activate at once. I passed
that information on to the transmission shop this morning. No word
from them yet on any progress.

My next car will be a 74 Dodge Dart, it was my first car and there
wasnt anything on it short of the rearend that I couldnt tackle in a
weekend.

Or maybe another 69 300 with aftermarket fuel injection installed on
its 440 again, 20MPG on that beast wasnt bad..

 

Well so much for that. I got tired of waiting for results so I called
the transmission shops corporate office and complained about 9 days
with no end in sight. They contacted the shop and within an hour they
called my house and told my wife that my car was ready. Flabergasted I
called them and asked if they fixed the limp mode problem. The guy
said "Your transmission is fixed." I said yea but will it go into
limp? he said "Your transmission is fixed, if you have a problem with
a sensor or a control thats not my area. I fix tranmissions. I dont
have diagnostic equipment for other parts of cars"

So tomorrow I get to go pickup my car with its twice rebuilt
tranmission and still existing limp mode problem that the shop refuses
to fix or accept resposibility for. So I have paid $1800+ for a repair
that wont last if the transmission screws up again and I am willing to
bet thats how they will weasel out of their warranty.

So now I am really looking for any last ditch ideas....

Thanks...

 

Hi...

You have my sympathy...

Just one thought fwiw from an old retired electrical guy, if it
should be at all helpful?

How about using another car (trade with your wife, or child, or...)
for your highway speed trip to work - and let whichever of
the above use yours for in city slower trips while you work out
what's really going wrong.

That way if it does decide to shift to a lower gear (or all gears)
you'll (they'll) have a much better chance of not cooking the
clutches because of the lower speed.

Take care.

Ken

 

Thank you Ken its good advice but unfortunately I am lucky enough to
own a house in the boonies. I live in a rural area where I have .5
mile to the left and right of my drive way thats 35mph after that its
45+ and to get to any town its all highway driving. My wife has a
Accord I have been using while mine was in the shop so I stranded her
at home with our 4yr old for the last 2 weeks.

I plan as soon as I recover from this nightmare on buying a 60's or
70's car for a spare. Mileage may not be as good but getting from
point a to point b will suffice.

Take it easy!

 

As a last resort, take the car to the dealer and have the software
revision code on the TCM checked. Make sure the revision code is the
latest possible for this car. The dealer can flash the EEPROM as
needed. This is relatively inexpensive, from below $70 to $130 if they
charge for getting the revision number first. It's a long shot and it's
just a start. A bug or a bad byte in the EEPROM can do things that can
damage the car. The reman TCM that was put in might not have the latest
code. You would think this would be checked but it requires hooking the
TCM up to a reader which takes time and effort.

In my vehicle with the A604, the electronically controlled clutch
upshifted too slowly with the original code. So the torque converter
started to self-destruct, exhibiting a shudder around 37 to 45 mph. I
had ATF +3 put in after a simple drain and a new filter and a
reprogramming of the computer and all is well with the tranny. I stayed
away from ATF +4 on purpose since it might be too "slippery" for the
A604.

I'm not a mechanic and don't know much about this stuff but just
throwing out a wild suggestion for you.

Reman. Part No. Vehicle Application -
Software ID
Year
Body Type

Engine
R4686606AA 04686606 95 AJ,AS,A1,A3,A4,ES 3.0, 3.3 & 3.8L
R5269726AA 05269726 95 FJ 2.0 & 2.5L
R4797708AA 04797708 95 LH 3.3 & 3.5L
R4686478AA 04686606 93-94 A,C,J,P,S,Y 3.0, 3.3 & 3.8L
R4759066AA 04797708 93-94 LH 3.3 & 3.5L
R4761848AA 04796123 92 A,C,G,J,S,Y 3.0L
R4761849AA 04796124 92 C,S,Y 3.3L & 3.8L
R4761847AA 04796122 90-91 C,S,Y 3.3 & 3.8L
R4761846AA 04796121 89-91 A,C,G,J,S,Y 3.0L

 

Thanks! So in order to do the version check and re-flash does the TCM
have to be removed from the vehicle, or can it be rather? If my car
goes into limp tomorrow this may be my best resoloution for having the
TCM checked.

 

On my minivan, I assumed, perhaps wrongly, that only a special cable
needed to be used, an expensive cable for pre-1996 vehicles. So that
leaves out a lot of independents who might not wish to bother with this
expense. The TCM sits plainly in site so I thought, aha, just unplug it
and plug in the harness for the EEPROM reader and writer. It did not
appear to me that the TCM had been unscrewed and taken out but I did
not see what took place at the dealership. Not sure if the details are
in the FSM. There is also a very inexpensive shop manual for this
transmission, available directly from DC online or by phone, maybe most
dealers' parts departments still can get it, for less than $20. A
superbook for this tranny. I don't have it but just throwing out ideas
for you. Also check, if not already, the TSB's on your car and tranny.
A literature review, if you will. What I mentioned above with software
revision numbers is directly from a TSB on this tranny.

1989-1998 41 TE/AE TRANSAXLE SUPERBOOK $17.00
http://www.techauthority.daimlerchrysler.com/ 800-890-4038
8am-8pm

With some luck, the reprogramming might sort out the TCM if it were the
TCM.

 

The transmission sensor or control is -not- an "other part of the car"
neither
is the TCM, those are part of the transmission.

If it fails again then dispute the charge through your credit card company
and I will bet that you will win. Where did you take it? AAMCO?
I never heard of a "transmission shop's corporate office" unless it was
a national chain like AAMCO, and there's a reason that place is called
SCAMCO by a lot of people.

When you made the call to the corporate office, I am sure what happened
was a telephone call from the corporate office to the local transmission
shop that went something like this:

corporate office: "Hey Joe, we got a call from this Richard Ahlquist saying
you've been fooling with his car for 9 days what gives?"

trans shop: "Yeah, it's really a tough one we think it's bad wiring and are
trying to trace it out"

corporate office: "how much warranty time have you put into this so far"

trans shop: "about 5 hours over the last couple weeks"

corporate office: "Joe, give the car back to the customer"

trans shop: "but it's not fixed it will just break down again and the
customer
will bring it back"

corporate office: "tell them it's not a problem in the transmission and not
covered under warranty"

trans shop: "then they are just going to dispute it and we will lose $1800"

corporate office: "Joe, we have had this discussion before. Your cost to
rebuild that transmission is about $300 in parts, and about $500 in labor.
If they dispute the charge we lose $800, not $1800. And in the 5 hours
you have spent trying to fix this, you could have rebuilt another customers
car and made $1000. We lose less money by just accepting the $1800
chargeback and moving on then by you spending the time to try to fix it
under warranty. Once they get a successful chargeback then they cannot
make any further warranty claims and it will be someone else's problem"

Quit using lowball car repair places and find a good local independent
transmission repair shop that has great ratings at the Better Business
Bureau, and take it there. It will cost more than $1800 to rebuild - but
it will get done properly. Your wife is right.

And additionally, it probably IS the input and output speed sensors,
or the connections to them.
You, and SCRAMCO, both went out and bought cheapie speed
sensors, didn't you, you didn't go get them from the dealer, right?
And, did you replace the TPS sensor? Probably not, you were told
that sensor was bad but you didn't mention replacing it.

Well, why do you think that these
sensors cost a lot more money at the dealer? Plenty of people have
had the experience of buying cheap low-grade replacement sensors
for this transmission and had the same experience as you, that has
been talked about on this forum before.

Ted

 

You make good points, Ted, which is usual for you.

But why not a remanufactured transmission? The most expensive would be
from DC and run now what, $1800? Labor would be additional. But that
would come with a warranty for 3/36 would it not, including labor if
the dealer put it in? There are cheaper reman or rebuilt trannies from
jobbers which shops use and run about $1600? I don't know much about
them.

I recall a friend who had Cottman try to repair by rebuilding her
tranny for $3000. At that time, a reman tranny from Chrysler was $1200,
so with labor, what, $1800? She was not aware that in this case the
dealer was far cheaper and probably far more competent. But in her
case, the problem was not fully resolved until the TCM was updated. In
any case, as a good mechanic told me, he would not rebuild his own. He
would just get one from Chrysler and put it in. Too many parts, seals,
and what not. But he was not a tranny guy but someone who specialized
in European vehicles.

 

Preaching to the choir here! I agree.

No its not AAMCO, its a smaller chain I will name after I get my car
back this morning.

Thanks Ted. I'll keep this in mind, the sesnors I bought were Standard
Automotive I believe, no they didnt come from the dealer. As for the
TPS, no it hasnt been replaced, nor has the computer kicked another
error code for it. Besides if the TPS was truly bad would there not
likely be other throttle related symptoms?

 

Actually I wound up at this shop because of a nasty shock from the
dealer. I called them prior to getting the loan to fix the car, and
asked "How much would you charge me to put a new transmission in this
car?" Their reply, ballpark about $2200. So I got a loan for $2500.

After I got my loan and called the dealer for the final pricing it was
revealed the 2200 didnt inlclude labor. Final estimate was around
$2780. I was kinda pissed at the jerking around.

 

Richard, FWIW, there is a shop in my locality that completely rebuilds
the A604 for $1495 + Tax. That is a rebuild of the trans. Sensors and
other parts would be extra. And those prices are in Canadian Dollars.

But they are a reputable shop! When I took my GC to them, they did NOT
assume that it needed a rebuild, and as much as refused to do anything
until they had performed a "proper and complete diagnosis". Their
reasoning was that it could be many things, and they wanted to fix it
right the first time. Which they did - it was a solenoid pack. All my
wiring checked out OK.

So Teds advice is correct. You need a local independant shop. Such
shops live and die on reputation. They cannot aford to screw up and
get a bad name. Check the BBB. Check with local automotive places.
Often people "know" about the good, the bad, and the ugly of such
shops. Ask around. If you get a farily consistant answers, and a good
BBB rating, then that is your best bet.

And as for your existing shop, I would dispute the charge - period.
Start the process immediately. It takes time to get the paperwork, and
for the process to complete. In the mean time, drive it close to home
in your speare time to try and reproduce the problem. When you do (I
am fairly certain) then drive it home in limp mode at lower speed. It
should not damage the transmission. When mine went into limp mode my
wife actually drove it for a few days before I drove it and noticed
the limp mode! I then drove it over an hour away (at low speed on the
highway! to the excellent shop that fixed it properly. NO DAMAGE.

GO kick some butt! I hate scaming auto shops! And, of course, once you
get the car back please DO publish the name of the shop for all to
see. Avoidence of such shops is a GOOD thing.

hth

 

You don't have another dealer near you? I have two dealers near me. The
one who got an outstanding signal at cartalk.com where they rate some
shops and dealers and mechanics, did turn out to be outstanding. At
least until they saw me as a chronic problem who would not dump money
on the desk. I wish I could fellows.

The other dealer was hit or miss. When I drove to them with a serious
problem, they could not be bothered. Get an appointment. At other
times, another service writer, would actually come out to the vehicle
in the lot for a quick look and free advice. So very uneven. I am not
surprised you got two quotes and messed around. That happens when you
have a good cop bad cop routine in the dealership. It's a pain to get
everything in writing, especially in the boonies where a word should be
good enough. In your case, a mechanic friend could have ordered the
tranny from the dealer at presumably reduced cost. I might have told
the dealer that to get the price down to the original estimate or
you'll purchase the tranny with the good customer 10% discount. In any
case, that is bad enough to warrant a complaint. That's like a bait and
switch fraud routine; it's along the same lines or just plain
incompetence or greed or all three.

 

On Mon, 22 May 2006 10:45:46 -0400, Richard Ahlquist

Well I got the car back today from Speedy Transmission. The rebuild
itself seems to be fine.

I continue to work under the assumption that the advice someone
emailed me after seeing my post here is correct. That tip was that
they had in the past seen a similar problem to this and that it was
the A/C compressor cycling off and creating an inductive spike in the
electrical system. So after picking up the car i drove down the block
some and stopped the car, got out and pulled the A/C compressor relay
from under the hood. I then proceded to drive the car today without
incident. The folks at speedy were shocked with the information I
shared with them about the A/C and wanted to know where I got it so I
pointed them to Google Groups (no sense trying to spend hours
explaining newsgroups).


Today was quite hot, 91 when I got home. Since the A/C was unhooked
and will continue to be so until I get a zener diode to
replace/supplement the old one I should get some good testing in to
eliminate/validate the A/C being the source of the issue. All said and
done today I put 100+ Miles on the car since picking it up with no
further issue.

I'd like to thank everyone in the group who chimed in, and the person
who supplied what I hope is the answer to my issue!

 

Hi there, I have a 96 Sebring convertible 2.5l with an A604 trans. I
seems to have the exact same problem. I did a little on the roa
diagnosis and found that at exactly 67mph the engine would drop down t
idle as if the cruise control was shutting it down. The car function
completely normally from 0 to 67. Even if I speed up and coast to
speed above 67 the engine returns to idle. As soon as the speed drop
below 65 the engine returns to normal. People telling you that th
transmission is fine may be on the right track. Because no matter wha
I put my transmission through everything remains normal provided th
speed is kept under 67mph. Note the fact that if you keep the gas peda
floored when the engine kicks off at 67 the car abruptly springs back t
life at the exact time the speed drops under 65. This is not recommende
due to the fact that you may hurt a perfectly good transmission. I hav
a pretty good repair manual and it expressly implies not to intermi
computers with transmissions from different years, though specifics ar
not mentioned. I have since parked the car and stripped it of all th
important parts for use on a 98 that I picked up. I understand th
frustration, I also live in a rural area and drive 35 miles to wor
each way. For what it is worth you are not alone. At least you kno
the problem has happened to someone else and is not a totally isolate
incident. One good benefit was that on more than one occasion th
problem saved me from getting caught in a speed trap...

 

It depends why it went into limp mode. If it's a sensor failure then it
will not hurt the transmission. I had one of mine drop into 2nd gear while
going 55Mph downhill on the freeway. The TCM had an input speed
sensor code failure and I replaced the sensor that evening with one
from NAPA.

Yes, definitely. As long as you stick exactly to the facts you cannot be
sued for libel.

Ted

 

Richard, don't celebrate too quick, your tempting the daemons, you know.

You don't need a zener diode, any old diode will do, all it is for is
shorting
out the back EMF that is generated when the clutch releases and the
field in the clutch coil collapses. Any electrical supply house will have
it.
Just get the biggest wattage one you can fit in there.

But be aware that if it's a failing sensor that the way they usually fail if
they don't just go dead is to be very intermittent. You might have a limp
incident every 3-6 months, then over time the interval between incidents
becomes closer and closer.

Ted