Hello everybody,
I am new here, and I freely admit I am not an expert on lubricants, or
auto trans axles for that matter. I 'am' a die hard FWD MOPAR enthusiast
however, and I have an above average understanding of relevant matters to
this topic. I am in no way affiliated with either Daimler Chrysler, or any
lubricant blender or distributing network. I am merely a private party
having experience with the A604/41TE4 auto transaxles.
I have read with great interest the debate about ATF +3 and +4, verses
Amsoil Type IV 'full synthetic' Universal ATF, and I wish to offer my
limited knowledge and personal experience regarding this.
I do not care *who* is "right or wrong", and neither do I care much about
posting style. The facts are what I am concerned with. I can only offer my
personal experience and limited knowledge, because frankly it appears
obvious to me, that statistics and fancy numbers hold little power to
persuade these days regarding ATF and other lubricants. Really such
debates are just arguments driven mainly by emotion, e.g, product and
manufacturer loyalty based upon advertising hype and corporate propaganda
[*spin*]. The facts, so far, have taken a back seat to the forgoing,
regarding the ATF +3 and +4 vs alternatives debate.
Most of us are aware that for too long many if not most Transmission
Shops, wrongly believe an A604 can handle even Dextron Mercon ATF, as long
as a friction modifier is added. Many a sad A604 owner has learned however,
that this is simply NOT true. But they obviously do not really know why
this is so.
DC has been partly to blame for these misconceptions, because their TSB's
on this issue have been until recently, ambiguous and open to
interpretation. In fact even now, because of this, many A604 owners are
still unsure if ATF +4 is suitable for *their year* of A604. Or whether or
not ATF + 4 is a 'full synthetic' Type IV PAO ATF, or just a lower grade
'semi synthetic' Type III PAO ATF.
I am going to try now, to avoid laying out "facts" in a way which will
only provoke an argument. HA! riiiiiiight. Instead I will TRY to offer the
following, which I hope will assist you as it did me, to sort out the
*corporate spin and advertising hype* from good information.
I have gone through two A604's, despite my tendency to to be extremely
conscientious about maintenance issues, and I became "absolutely paranoid"
about my A604. Religiously checking the ATF level daily, carefully
examining the fluid on the stick, watching temp levels on my AutoMeter
Trans temp gauge, and reading to learn about this trans axle, even talking
face to face with a few real experts.
As a result I became convinced that the A604/41TE4, as it is now, is a
truly great design. It is a genuine marvel of technology. It's weakness
has really been that existing ATF, even DC's new + 4, is simply not
adequate to cool it and keep it free from micro-varnish. Although ATF + 4
is a step in the right direction, it is really a type IV PAO semi
synthetic. As such it still has impurities, *which can and will* convert
to micro-varnish etc, and it's *viscosity index* is inferior to a 'true
full synthetic' type IV. It can NOT cool as well as a true Type IV full
synthetic.
I recently did a complete flush and filter change, in an upgrade to a Type
IV full synthetic ATF. I was going to go with Redline C+, but none was
available in my area, and I wanted to do it before the weather here warms
up any more than it is now. So I spoke at length with a tech at Amsoil
named Kevin who posts on the Bob Is The Oil Guy forum. He carefully
explained to me why their "universal" type IV full synthetic ATF, is not
snake oil, as I thought it just "had to be". I mean, how could there be
such a thing as a "universal" ATF?!
OK. Cut to the chase. I had my last A604 race built last year. Alloy
spline and planetaries, the best Kevlar clutches, a premium TC and pumps,
welded diff pin etc, and I changed from the 'old tech' tube and fin cooler
to a stacked plate cooler. I only used MOPAR ATF +3. Still the damned
thing would just get too hot during "spirited street driving", and
especially in stop and go in town. All of this just left me "sick of the
whole thing". I was on the verge of doing the 5 speed manual swap, despite
the high cost in time and effort because I was getting the beginning signs
of "problems", despite all the best parts and perfect maintenance! Only 8
months after the expensive rebuild, but *as the weather warmed up* it was
getting a bit harder to move the handle from P to D, and 3rd was not as
firm as it really should be. I knew the solenoid valve body was not old or
defective, and my PRNDL switch was just fine, as were all the connections
"down there".
I considered going to MOPAR ATF +4, despite the fact that, as usual,
several Chrysler service reps had different interpretations of the DC
TSBs. No one was sure if I even should change to ATF +4, until very
recently.
At the advice of a trusted performance expert. I opened my mind and began
to do research on the full synthetic alternative. I was always a, NO WAY
JOSE Only MOPAR ATF +3 is going onto that baby, kind of person. But Joe
has never given me bad advice, so I decided to look into what ATF +4
really is. Thank you Joe!
The fact the DC has NOT licensed the formula to others, as even FORD has
their new ATF, and DC charges $25 a gallon for ATF +4, tells me that money
is more important to them than we are. Well, OK, I love my local MOPAR
parts man, and one dealership Service manager and dealership owner in my
area, really is way above average. Great people. But face it, many
dealerships are "less than trustworthy", and I do not trust Daimler at
all, and for good reason.
So with an open mnd this time. I looked into Amsoil. I *agonized* over it.
I read and I read. I talked to others who had switched to type IV PAO full
synthetic ATF. Then I did it. I put it in, and let me tell you the STUFF
ROCKS!
I am so glad that *I did the work*, to sort through all the hype and even
well intended misconceptions from loyalists. For example, those who think
that Mopar +4 is a true TYPE IV PAO full synthetic, are simply mistaken
because it is only a TYPE III semi synthetic. Some people even think that
ATF can somehow "sense what kind of trans it is in", and then "switch
characteristics to meet the application". Trans fluid is not sentient. It
senses nothing, and it can not "switch characteristics". ATF can do no
more than behave within it's formulation parameters, and the formulation
of a true full synthetic TYPE IV PAO fluid, is greatly superior, to any
Type III semi synthetic. End of story.
My A604/41TE4 now runs 20 degrees F cooler, and shifts faster and firmer.
I don't care if it is "supposed to last longer" or not. I do NOT care if I
have to change it every 10K miles instead of tmy old 25K change ritual
even. It is really worth the money too.
I know that any ATF capable of making my SVB function perfectly again, and
enable my A604 to run cooler and shift that much better, is going to make
my trans axle last a lot longer. All I have to do is change filters and
pan fluid religiously, and watch my fluid level.
Yeah, it's sort of like before; but I am not "sweating it" anymore,
because of the way my TRANS performs now. On a hot day, in stop and go
traffic it no longer gets hot, and that lever easily and smoothly moves
from P to D, even when I first start my engine. All just like it did the
day it was race rebuilt.
OK. Now I am out of here. I am not going to argue irrelevant semantic
points, and fend spin from well intended, lovable but misguided loyalists.
I have given you good and honest advice. Call the Amsoil people yourself,
and at least actually use some logic regarding this issue. In short. Open
your mind and consider the facts for yourself. I will leave it to you to
do that.
I just could not remain silent and let the BS rule on this subject. Amsoil
is not snake oil. I am not going to become a distributer, but I have
cleared my conscience, and my HOT 3.0 FWD MOPAR, now rocks even more than
it did before.
Best wishes to all of you.
