96 Town & Country tranny fluid issues

Discussion in 'General Motoring' started by 99trooper, Nov 9, 2004.

  1. 99trooper

    99trooper Guest

    This past July I had my tranny fluid "t-tech" flushed by a quick lube place
    (132k miles). It was the first time I had the vehicle serviced for trans
    fluid since I bought it with 83k on it so I figured it was time (no
    problems otherwise).

    Last week my wife calls me up and says the transmission appears to be
    slipping (now has 137k on it)...Hmm a mere coincidence, or problems with
    the flush? I did a test drive, It did appear to not accelerate like it
    sould when you "punched" it and did have an ever so slight chatter at
    times at shifts.

    So I did some checking...The manual says you should use Mopar brand (blah
    blah) / or ATF +3... if neither are available use Dexron 3, but may cause
    problems in the future ( when, like the side of the road?) Anyway, I read
    that there had been a TSB issued by Chrysler that says that you should not
    even use Dexron 3, as it can cause slippage etc.

    So I call the place that did the fluid change in July and had them check
    to see what they used in my vehicle... lo and behold... DEXRON 2?!?! not
    even 3 May be he mis-spoke, but I told him about the book stating the use
    of ATF +3 and also the TSB from Chrysler and he fully agreed, he didn't
    even really hesitate about it, said bring it right it, in fact as soon as
    possible, we will take care of it. So I brought it in this evening. They
    had to get ATF +3 from NAPA (Quaker State Brand) didn't charge me for it,
    but at least they did admit that they did have the wrong stuff in there.
    I did them write something up saying that they did do this too.

    They wrote: at 132K replaced trans fluid with Dexron and used Lube Guard
    to enhance the fluid to Mopar +3. At 137K flushed trans fluid and used
    ATF +3. Since when does an additive make Dexron the same as ATF +3? They
    did want to add the same additive again with the ATF +3... I told them no,
    just plain +3 is fine since Dexron 3 claims to be universal as well, I
    didn't want that one bottle screwing up the whole thing.

    So now it does seem to shift better (a bit stiff at the moment), but at
    least doesn't appear to slip or chatter. any further action on my part
    needed?
     
    99trooper, Nov 9, 2004
    #1
  2. 99trooper

    cloaked Guest

    Just do a google on this newsgroup and you will find all kinds of
    discussion about tranny fluid.

    The long and the short of it is - use what Chrysler specifies and you
    wont have any problems.

    Use something else and takes yer chances!
     
    cloaked, Nov 9, 2004
    #2
  3. 99trooper

    Richard Guest

    Only use ATF +3 with no additive!!!!!!

    Richard.
     
    Richard, Nov 9, 2004
    #3
  4. 99trooper

    Bob Shuman Guest

    Actually ATF+4 (new synthetic formulation that is superior in all regards)
    is the best choice, but ATF+3 (which is what it came with new) is also
    perfectly acceptable as well. BTW, the ATF+3 (which is available at most
    auto parts stores in vendor labeled product) costs about 1/3 to 1/4 of the
    ATF+4 (which is still only available to my knowledge from Chrysler dealers).

    Never, ever use anything but ATF+4 or ATF+3 (which, also btw, can be mixed).
    You are absolutely correct that the lubeguard additive does not change
    Dexron into Mopar type ATF. Also good that the trans shop recognized their
    error and flushed the trans for you. This says that they are reputable, but
    that said, they never should have made the error in the first place.

    Regarding what you need to do now, if they did actually get all of the
    Dexron out as they say, you should be good for 30K miles. If not, It
    probably would not hurt to change the fluid again after 6-12K miles to make
    sure it is still performing well. Lastly, you were not clear on if they
    actually dropped the trans pan and changed the filter or just did the (all
    too common) "power flush" using the trans cooler lines and a special
    machine. I ask this since the pan really should be dropped and cleaned
    properly since a lot of the clutch material ends up forming a "sludge like
    gunk" in the bottom of the pan. Also, the magnet needs to be cleaned to
    remove the small metal filings it has collected, and as mentioned earlier,
    the filter should be replaced too. The only way to do this is to drop the
    pan, which is a pretty simple job on that vehicle since all the pan bolts
    are easily accessible. The biggest problem is the fact there is no drain
    plug and that when you break the pan free, it causes a bit of a mess. Last
    comment, if you do drop the pan, scrape off all the RTV gasket sealer
    material and then purchase a multiple use (I think it can be re-used three
    times) silicone metal gasket from the Chrysler dealer as this will make the
    job easier next time around.

    Good luck

    Bob
     
    Bob Shuman, Nov 9, 2004
    #4
  5. 99trooper

    Cloaked Guest

    Another reason to drop the pan is that the filter has to be changed.

    The magnet in the pan is only good for bits of iron or steel based
    composition! There are - if I am not mistaken - some aluminum parts in
    this transmission! If the filter either gets cloged or misses some of
    those little aluminum nasties, then your trans life will likely be
    shortened!
     
    Cloaked, Nov 9, 2004
    #5
  6. 99trooper

    99trooper Guest

    Thanks for the follow-ups. I did read something on ALLPAR.com about
    syphoning out the tranny fluid by shoving a plastic tube down the
    dip-stick tube. I will try to drain that way first then pull the pan
    (less mess). I would rather be safe than sorry.

    When they showed me the fluid level last night, it was on the bottom of
    the stick on the "warm" level- only should have been at the hot by that
    point. The guy asked me if I wanted him to add some of the stuff from the
    machine (I assume it is the Dextron 3 they just pulled out)- Uh no thanks!
    I figured I was at least a quart low and would pick up some fluid after
    work today. My wife said on her way to droping the kids off at her
    parents before her work, it was slipping again (put in drive and wont go
    anywhere until 4k RPM). She left the car at her parents (2 miles from our
    house) and I had her dad check the level. He said it was at the bottom of
    the dipstick (I guess I was low on my estimations). I suspect it will be
    ok when I add to the correct level... if it isn't.. the quick lube just
    bought me a new trans rebuild!
     
    99trooper, Nov 9, 2004
    #6
  7. 99trooper

    99trooper Guest

    I'll probably change the filter this weekend and just add for now.
    Autozone filter: $10.00. Dealer says pan gasget is RTV sealant. Anything
    else I should know? Any ATF +3 brand better than others? I read on
    Allpar.com that ATF+4 may not be ok due to seal failure.
     
    99trooper, Nov 9, 2004
    #7
  8. 99trooper

    jdoe Guest

    +4 is fine. Won't cause seal failure. There is a multi use coated steel
    gasket ask your dealer to look it up. NOt cheap but easier than silicone.
    Basically +3 should be +3 too.
    Larry
     
    jdoe, Nov 9, 2004
    #8
  9. 99trooper

    Bob Shuman Guest

    Dropping the pan isn't that bad even with it full. Just get a large basin
    to put under it. If you break the RTV seal at the rear first you can let it
    drip out with some control. The angle of the pan on the Caravan makes it a
    little easier to get at and less messy that the other models. Invest in the
    re-useable gasket from the dealer. I've bought three so far for my various
    Chryslers and all have gone on well and none have leaked (torque settings
    for the pan bolts is 165 in pounds IIRC and remember to snug them up first
    and then torque each alternating across the pan as you go). Breaking the
    seal, followed by scraping off the RTV were probably the worst parts of the
    whole job.

    Hope that the slipping is the remaining fluid or low level. I've used
    Quaker State and IIRC, Valvoline ATF+3 in the past. Both worked fine and I
    had no problems, but in the recent past and going forward all I use is the
    ATF+4.

    Bob
     
    Bob Shuman, Nov 9, 2004
    #9
  10. 99trooper

    Richard Guest

    Chrysler put out a notice that the use of +4 in a pre 2000 4 speed mini-van
    transmission will cause the transmission clutch to chatter (bad) if it has
    to go through a computer re-learn cycle. It happened to me. People who post
    otherwise should keep their traps shut.

    Richard.
     
    Richard, Nov 11, 2004
    #10
  11. Chrysler has put out a lot of "notices" (TSBs) regarding transmission
    fluid selection. What is the date on the TSB you looked at?

    Also, please give more info. What happened *after* the computer re-learn
    cycle? Was the on-road learn protocol used, or the "quick learn"
    procedure?

    DS
     
    Daniel J. Stern, Nov 11, 2004
    #11
  12. 99trooper

    mic canic Guest

    actually from what i just read you are incorrect there was a tsb issued reviewing
    the issue and vehicles for the most part going bac to 89 can use atf4 with no
    issues but if the t.q converter has been replaced and the etax. then the drb must
    be used to
    shut off quik learn .dated 2004 and the new formulated atf4 and if i remember
    correctly the color will be going by by and it will come clear in the futurethe
    issue was indeed shutter that would disappear after 7 or 8 hours of drive time
     
    mic canic, Nov 11, 2004
    #12
  13. 99trooper

    Bob Shuman Guest

    My 1999 MiniVan has 61K miles and has had the trans flushed twice (30K and
    60K miles). Once at the dealer and once by myself. Both times with ATF+4
    and there have been no problems experienced. Dealer service told me that
    there was indeed a slight chance for this clutch chatter to occur, but if it
    did to just disconnect the battery to allow the transmission to re-learn the
    new fluid.

    Could you please cite the actual TSB source for your email.

    Bob
     
    Bob Shuman, Nov 11, 2004
    #13
  14. 99trooper

    Richard Guest

    I don't have that Chrysler notice at hand; but it had been posted here about
    2 years ago. It is not that the clutch has to relearn the +4, it is that if
    it has to go through a relearn process and it has been switched to +4, the
    clutch will chatter and perhaps damage itself. My dealer put in +4 in my 96
    and I called Chrysler to confirm their advise, they called the dealer and
    the dealer (at its own expense) flushed out the +4 (plus additive they put
    in), and replaced it with +3, and my shifting issues went away.

    Richard.
     
    Richard, Nov 11, 2004
    #14
  15. 99trooper

    Bill Putney Guest

    The latest TSB on the subject is No. 21-004-04 issued March 2004. It
    says, in part: "This bulletin applies to all transmissions manufactured
    by Chrysler except for 1999 and earlier minivans with the 41TE/AE
    transmission. This Service Bulletin DOES NOT apply to all AWD
    transmissions, Sprinter transmissions, Crossfire transmissions and WG
    bodies equipped with a W5J400 or NAGI transmission (sales code DGJ)...".

    That TSB supercedes No. 21-006-01. That TSB (21-006-01) no longer shows
    up on AllData since it is superceded, but what it, in part, said was: "A
    new transmission fluid (ATF+4(R) - Type 9602) has been developed and is
    being used as factory fill for all vehicles with Chrysler automatic
    transmissions. Until now, vehicles originally filled with ATF+2 or ATF+3
    were to be serviced with ATF+3. Effective immediately, it is recommended
    that all vehicles with Chrysler automatic transmissions except for 1999
    and earlier minivans be serviced with ATF+4(R). ATF+3 should continue to
    be used for 1999 and earlier minivans because of the potential for
    torque converter shudder during break in. For all other applications the
    ATF+4(R) fluid offers significant benefits as outlined below...".

    If you check the archives of this ng, you will see that some
    knowledgeable person/people stated that that TC shudder concern was due
    to torque converter clutch wear-in, and that I speculated at least twice
    that, if that was true, once the tranny (and clutch) had some wear on
    it, apparently it would be OK to switch to ATF+4. No-one ever
    challenged or acknowledged that theroy (so it was left ambiguous as to
    whether ATF+4 would cause an actual problem with 99+% of the minivans on
    the road whose TC clutches were certainly well broken-in by now even
    though the TSB said not to use it).

    Bill Putney
    (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
    adddress with the letter 'x')
     
    Bill Putney, Nov 11, 2004
    #15
  16. 99trooper

    Richard Guest

    The latest TSB on the subject is No. 21-004-04 issued March 2004. It
    Yes, the TSB's are confusing. That is why I called Chrysler for technical
    assistance. They called me back and recommended getting rid of the +4 plus
    additive and recommended +3. It sure would be nice if Chrysler had a clearer
    way of communicating the care and feeding of its products. Do you kind of
    get the feeling that Chrysler is not quite sure about this issue; I sure do.

    Still, my shifting did get smoother when I used +3. It did not prevent my
    case from cracking from that loose pin Chrysler knew about but did not let
    us know it had a cure for. No customer quality inspection program here.

    Richard.
     
    Richard, Nov 12, 2004
    #16
  17. 99trooper

    RPhillips47 Guest

    Yeah - Chrysler quality isn't worth anything. My '96 T&C LXi only has 184,500
    miles on it and my '93 Jeep GC Laredo is fast approaching 195,000 miles. The
    Pacifica only has 23,700 miles on it so who knows how long it will last??????

    RP
     
    RPhillips47, Nov 12, 2004
    #17
  18. 99trooper

    Richard Guest

    Yeah - Chrysler quality isn't worth anything. My '96 T&C LXi only has
    184,500
    I think you miss my point. My 96 T&C had over 120,000 miles and was still
    going strong. Motor was like new on Mobil 1. But Chrysler knew cases were
    cracking because the rear mounting pin was working loose somehow. They
    failed to inform the dealers to do an inspection and took years to develop a
    fix that would keep the pin problem from cracking the case. They have not
    put in place an owner satisfaction program to get people to bring the cars
    in for an inspection, and are not telling dealers to fix the pins with their
    kit as a customer satisfaction program. Not a quality issue, sometimes these
    things happen, but a customer relations issue. On this Chrysler has let the
    customer down.

    Richard.
     
    Richard, Nov 12, 2004
    #18
  19. 99trooper

    Matt Whiting Guest

    Yep, same problem here. My 96 GV has 159,000 and I've had to replace
    the tires, the brakes and several other things in the 8 years I've
    owened it. They just don't make cars to hold up anymore.


    Matt
     
    Matt Whiting, Nov 12, 2004
    #19
  20. 99trooper

    deadbeat Guest

    You fail to mention the pin problem is caused from excessive wheel spin! ie)
    driver flooring the gas pedal while slipping on ice.
     
    deadbeat, Nov 12, 2004
    #20
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