'93 Grand Voyager crank, no start

My father's '93 Grand Voyager (3.0L, auto, 178k kms) decided not to start
today when he really needs it (it has been converted to a wheelchair van for
my brother long ago, a real lifesaver to say the least). She'll crank over
all day but won't catch. I do hear the fuel pump running for a few seconds
when switched to the run position. Being in a dark and rainy driveway rather
late at night I haven't been able to diagnose further. Are there any common
problems with this thing that I should be aware of? I know the tranny is
known to explode at around 180k (hoping it's miles), but it was running fine
last time I used it no more than two weeks ago. The gauge shows just over
1/4 tank of gas. I haven't checked for a spark yet (like I said, it's dark,
wet, late, and bloody cold). Can I check for trouble codes in this thing
like I do on my early-90's GMs or do I need a real scanner, not just a
paperclip? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated, I'd hate to have to
see if I can fold up that wheelchair and stuff it in my lil Jimmy this
weekend. Thanks guys.

 

You got to check for spark, find a old spark plug, pull one of the spark
wires
and put it on the plug, then lay the plug on the manifold and crank away.

If you got blue spark then chances are good that the timing belt snapped or
jumped teeth. Sorry if that is the case as changing it out is a PIA you
have to
unbolt stuff and getting the timing back right is a bit tricky. Not the
kind of
project you want to do in a dark, cold driveway.

Codes can be had with the on-off-on-off-on ignition key sequence. But if
the timing belt has broke or slipped, chasing codes is a waste of time. If
the belt has never been replaced, it's probably slipped or broken.

Ted

 

You got to check for spark, find a old spark plug, pull one of the spark

Thanks for the suggestions. I came home today to find that my father had
tried it again this morning and it fired right up, puffing a little dark
smoke on startup (presumably from fuel getting dumped in during cranking
last night). It idled well, no check engine light, no apparent problems. We
decided to take my brother to the mall and once we got there it stalled just
before we pulled into the parking spot. No warning of any kind, the engine
just quit. It did fire right back up and made it home with no problems. This
really doesn't give me much confidence in the ol' girl... I'm thinking a set
of plugs and leads couldn't hurt (I'm not sure if they've ever been
replaced) but still. Any comments?

 

Hmm well if it started again, it's not a snapped belt. Don't rule out the
timing
belt jumping a tooth though, although that is unlikely unless the belt
tensioner
is bad.

I'm thinking it's more like a crank position sensor or cam sensor. These
are
among the more common causes of intermittent problems like this on a
fuel injected car. It could also be the connectors to the sensors, possibly
compromised by water.

Ted

 

Hmm well if it started again, it's not a snapped belt. Don't rule out the

I can't see the timing belt having jumped, it ran decently when I had to
take it into Toronto the other night. It felt like it was bogging down upon
decelleration but that was likely just me looking for something wrong.

I'm not the least bit familair with the Mitsubishi engine. How would I check
the crank position sensor or the cam sensor? I wasn't aware that it had
either. At this point I figure I'll have to wait until it acts up again and
troubleshoot from there.

 

Replaced both. They're not that expensive.

 

Use a scope and a timing light. Don't forget to put the car on a sisemic
shake table to simulate the vibration normally felt by the sensors during
operation. And don't forget to use heatlamps to simulate typical underhood
temperatures. Note: don't put the scope on the shake table.

May I gently brain you with a 2x4 here? You just stated you aren't familar
with the engine in question. Don't you think that by now it might possibly
be
a good idea to GET familiar with it? Such as reading the factory service
manual for the vehicle? Or do you LIKE just replacing every part in the
vehicle until you stumble over the problem by accident? If so, why don't
you buy another '93 GV and just start exchanging parts one at a time
until the entire engine and drivetrain has been exchanged. Surely you
would have a good chance of finding the problem part that way!!

You should be taking the advice here as a pointer to look in the section
of the service manual that covers what you were pointed to. It is just a
start. Not an end.

Ted

 

I'm not the least bit familair with the Mitsubishi engine. How would I

Well you *were* being helpful... Isn't asking questions about an engine a
good way to begin learning about it? Last time I checked FSMs are pricey.
Are you suggesting I shell out for a FSM for a vehicle that I do not own?
Shell out for said service manual because of a single problem? Obviously I'm
not familiar with it else I wouldn't be asking for advise.

As for throwing parts at it we haven't replaced a single component yet so
I'm not sure where that came from. I mentioned car/rotor/leads but they're
common tune-up items on any engine with a distributor and are overdue. Would
you buy another van just for simple disposeable parts? Wow.

 

Replaced both. They're not that expensive.

Thanks, I'll look into it.

 

NOT if you were all set to run out and replace sensors or belts on account
of
advice I posted here. You should use the advice you get here to help you
prioritize what to look at first.

- begin- that is the operative word.

$20 is pricey?!?! See:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7934018996&category=34217

You won't even drop $20 into helping your father, the man who bore and
raised you? What an ungrateful brat!

This is NEVER going to break down EVER again once you fix it? Amazing! Can
you come fix my cars!?

Be serious. This is getting to be a more elderly vehicle, that with the
chair mods is
probably going to be run until the wheels fall off. If you want to keep it
running
which would be a kindness for your father and brother, a FSM is a
requirement.
Otherwise find a good mechanic.

cap/rotor/plug wires are no big deal. What I am cautioning you on is that
your approach is a shotgunners approach, and that is going to cost you, and
there's a good chance it won't solve the problem.

It's been said numerous times on this forum here, your wasting time and
money
without a FSM. There is really no excuse for it.

Everybody on this forum can get a cheap FSM for all the cars they own if
they
just do one simple thing and that is as soon as they buy their car, start
scanning
Ebay for a FSM. It isn't necessary to go to Hemmings Motor News and buy
from
one of the FSM dealers there, who generally charge 3/4 of the cost of a new
FSM, nor is it necessary to pay the factory for one. All that is necessary
is to
start scanning Ebay and eventually one is going to come up for sale, cheap.
Your
father should have done that when he paid extra to mod the van, or you
should
have done so and given him the manual for his birthday or for Christmas,
along with
the usual tie or after shave.

That's what I do with my parents, once the warranty on their vehicles runs
out.
(as I know that at least one or two times I'm going to get called in for
advice,
even if I don't end up actually doing the work to fix the vehicle) And as a
matter
of fact, amazingly enough, my father has actually looked at the pertinent
sections
of the manual once or twice when he had a failure. And when time comes to
trade in or sell the car, the manual goes back on Ebay and what I get from
it
usually pays a good chunk of the cost of the next one.

By the time the vehicle breaks down and you realize you need a FSM, well
if you don't have one by then, you really need to be silent on the cost, and
either pay the factory or pay one of the HMN's dealers and treat it as a
lesson
learned.

Ted

 

I've been scanning Ebay. $20 just buys the owner's manual most
times. I have yet to see a FSM. I have seen a powertrain FSM for
a 3.3l propane drivetrain or something. But I use gasoline. I
have never seen a plain vanilla FSM for the 1994 Voyager on eBay
but I'll keep looking since you said they come up.

Hemmings, 3/4's, might be good.

It's around $65 for a '94 Voyager. Not too bad for brand new,
including shipping. If Hemmings has it for $45, that's fine.

Last time I called the dealer, he would NOT EVEN ORDER the FSM.
Said to use the 800 number as they do! And I had a discount
coupon too, rats.

Couple years ago, someone was selling CD's of the FSM using PDF
files, but that's good and bad. I guess he was stopped because of
copyright laws on eBay. What was good, you could print out the
pages and only get those dirty. What was bad was the lack of
index but there's software now that will index PDF files, even
the captions of the pictures.

 

I gave you a URL of one on Ebay a week ago. Nobody bought it so
the seller relisted it. Here it is again:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7937042402

Keep in mind that we are so close to Christmas that sales of most
stuff like this on Ebay are dropping off. Most experienced Ebay
sellers know this and have stopped listing. Listing will pick up again
the first few weeks of January.

Uh, your post said 1993, not 1994.

You need to search for the following:

"1994 Chrysler manual"
"94 chrysler manual"
"1994 dodge manual"
"94 dodge manual"

I didn't see one when I just checked.

The 1993 manual may be close enough to get you by, and if you later buy a
1994
one you can resell the 1993 on Ebay.

Besides the actual manual there are a number of subsidary diagnostics books
like the following:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/e...tem=7902357348&category=34217&sspagename=WD1V

And yes, if you need something fast, you can get one of these:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7936224125&category=34218

I suspect these are illegal copies of the dealership CD's.

Ebay is really the cheapest place for finding a manual, but you will have to
keep
checking it. It took me about 4 months to collect all 9 model specific
Chrysler manuals
associated with my 1995 T&C when I bought it. And in some cases I had
to buy a group of 4-5 manuals to get 1 of the ones I wanted out of the
group,
I just resold the ones I didn't want back on Ebay.

But I ended up spending under $200 for the entire set. Worth every penny.

The problem with Hemmings is that the people selling things there are in
it to make a living doing it. So regardless of what they get their manuals
for - often a few dollars a manual - they sell them for about 70% of the
cost of a new one. It's just low enough so that if you need a set of
manuals
in a hurry that your going to go to the Hemmings sellers before you go
to the factory, but it's not a deal to write home about.

Ebay is where individuals like you and I go to sell the manuals that we
bought to work on the car that we just sold off or had towed to the
junkyard.
As a result we are quite happy to get 25% of the cost of a new manual -
which is higher than any Hemmings manual seller would ever pay us.
The downside is you have to wait. This is one area where it really really
pays to buy the stuff in advance of when you need it. When your car
is sitting there broken and needs fixing, the higher-priced places that
can give it to you immediately are the only places to go.

I don't think so. I know that guy I complained about him a couple times
myself, because he was literally flooding Ebay with hundreds of variations
of manual posts. I think he had a CD with about 30 manuals on it and
he would just advertise it 30 different ways. I think that what did him in
was he was way too greedy - wanting $29.95 for what was obviously
a pirated dealership CD - and nobody bought his stuff. He must have run
up a huge listing bill with Ebay and then not paid it, because Ebay surely
didn't bother booting him due to my or anyone elses' complaints.

The people pirating the CD manuals nowadays on Ebay are much more
low key, and they aren't anywhere near as greedy, so I think the Ebay
community tolerates them as an unavoidable evil, I know I do.

Ted

 

later buy a 1994 one you can resell the 1993 on Ebay.

I'm not the original poster. I'm looking for a 1994 Plymouth
Voyager. I did find a 1993-1994 Dodge Grand Caravan, thanks to
your URL. Tempted but it may not have my smaller engine, probably
does. Probably best to get exactly my model.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&ite
m=7936224125&category=34218

Again, thanks. The Diagnostic Manual for $40 with shipping looks
very tempting for diagnosing problems. I did not know one
existed. I guess they are a lot of IFs Then do the following? I
have never even seen one. Now I know. Very helpful info you
provide, Ted.

Factory Service Manual for Body Diagnostic Procedures. I have to
ask, what are body diagnostic procedures? Is that everything that
is not engine or electrical but the physical body, like shocks,
doors, windows and so forth?

will have to keep checking it. It took me about 4 months to
collect all 9 model specific Chrysler manuals associated with my
1995 T&C when I bought it. And in some cases I had to buy a
group of 4-5 manuals to get 1 of the ones I wanted out of the
group, I just resold the ones I didn't want back on Ebay.<

How do you ship these manuals to your buyers? Do you use USPS and
the book rate or FedEx or UPS? Just wondering.

variations of manual posts. I think he had a CD with about 30
manuals on it and he would just advertise it 30 different ways.
I think that what did him in was he was way too greedy - wanting
$29.95 for what was obviously a pirated dealership CD - and
nobody bought his stuff. He must have run up a huge listing bill
with Ebay and then not paid it, because Ebay surely didn't bother
booting him due to my or anyone elses' complaints.

Interesting. I remember that guy. I can't get over the last
dealer I called not even wanting to go to the trouble of ordering
the FSM for me. I thought that for at least 10 years the dealer
had to provide for the owner of a car so 1994 just makes it. In
fact, the dealer no longer has the OEM windshield wipers. They
sell only the $10 Trimline? series which is probably not quite as
good as Trico Exact Fit. I wanted to try the official high-priced
dealer windshield wiper because I read in Consumer Reports and
heard that the original OEM was better than the third-party.
Guess I'll never know now.

 

Your comments, Ted, led me to eBay and to Chrysler where I find
many manuals cheaper than on eBay except for the shop manual. But
the 1994-1995 for the Voyager body diagnostic manual was only $13
(which is okay for my 1994, the eBay's 1993-1994 for $35 is what
the 1993 owner would have to get) and owner's manuals were $10
(eBay usually has these at least $10 or more so the same price or
a little more) and the "Superbook" for the notorious tranny A604
or 41TE is either $11 for my year or $17 for all years 1989-1998.
And one can even order the CD for $90, the shop manual. I was
suprised to see that it is offered for sale. And $41 more than
the hard copy, not bad.

And I was right about the 10 years. 1994 is the last year these
manuals, including also the Technical Service Bulletins and
everything else are on sale. I would not be surprised that if I
do not order by the end of 2004 then this will not be available
after 1994 except on eBay.

I wonder if I should buy the shop manual on CD and then make a
copy for myself and then sell the original? Maybe get back half
of what I paid for it. Don't know. I like thumbing through the
hard back but having a CD and then what? Carry around a bulky
manual that will get dog-eared or CD's and then have to find
computers and printers if I am on the road?

So again, thanks for your input, Ted, you led me to many sources
I had not considered.

 

There is one other option that I do not believe was mentioned: You can
get an on-line subscription at www.alldata.com for your specific
vehicle. It includes on-line, real-time access to information right out
of the FSM - schematics, procedures, and all. Plus it includes on-line
access to complete TSB's for your vehicle.

I can't say that the complete cover-to-cover FSM is accessible thru
alldata, but I can say that on the two vehicles that I have
subscriptions for (and one of which I also have the hard-copy DC FSM for
comparison), I have *never* found a section not there when I looked for
it (sometimes it has taken a few minutes to find the section I need -
it's not organized or categorized like the FSM is). I can say with
confidence that the schematics are all there - again, the ones right out
of the FSM - none of the "typical" (i.e., error-filled and useless) crap
that you find in aftermarket manuals.

This would have some of the downsides of the CD (as you mentioned,
there's something to be said for flipping thru a hard copy), but the
price is right, especially for a short- or intermediate-term need: $25
for first vehicle or first year. $15 for any additional vehicles or
annual renewals.

If interested, you would have to check if they go back to '94, but if
they do, this would be another option for you.

Disclaimer: I have no affiliation with alldata other than being a paying
customer. I have nothing to gain by recommending their products.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
adddress with the letter 'x')

 

There is one other option that I do not believe was mentioned: You can
get an on-line subscription at www.alldata.com for your specific
vehicle. It includes on-line, real-time access to information right out
of the FSM - schematics, procedures, and all. Plus it includes on-line
access to complete TSB's for your vehicle.

I can't say that the complete cover-to-cover FSM is accessible thru
alldata, but I can say that on the two vehicles that I have
subscriptions for (and one of which I also have the hard-copy DC FSM for
comparison), I have *never* found a section not there when I looked for
it (sometimes it has taken a few minutes to find the section I need -
it's not organized or categorized like the FSM is). I can say with
confidence that the schematics are all there - again, the ones right out
of the FSM - none of the "typical" (i.e., error-filled and useless) crap
that you find in aftermarket manuals.

This would have some of the downsides of the CD (as you mentioned,
there's something to be said for flipping thru a hard copy), but the
price is right, especially for a short- or intermediate-term need: $25
for first vehicle or first year. $15 for any additional vehicles or
annual renewals.

If interested, you would have to check if they go back to '94, but if
they do, this would be another option for you.

Disclaimer: I have no affiliation with alldata other than being a paying
customer. I have nothing to gain by recommending their products.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
adddress with the letter 'x')

 

Was this problem ever resolved ? Not the one concerning the manuals, but
the 'crank, no start' problem ?

thanks,
Nick

 

Thanks, good points. Missed this post back then.

 

Not yet. Well there was one but I missed it.