88 New Yorker- SLOW turn signals????!!

[Bobby D.]

When I use my turn signals, they flash extremely slow (once every 8 seconds), I bought a new flasher unit for like $2 or $3 but that didn't work. Any help would be appreciated.

Bobby D

 

[Sharkman]

Dont know if this is your problem but check that all the bulbs are functioning... On my truck, when a bulb is burned out, the flashers flash slow...

 

[Steve Stone]

Dont know if this is your problem but check that all the bulbs are functioning... On my truck, when a bulb is burned out, the flashers flash slow...

Low voltage can cause problems too.

 

[Jack Pucci]

Sometimes the flasher slows just before it stops functioning

functioning... On my truck, when a bulb is burned out, the flashers flash
slow...

 

[Bobby D.]

One other thing ... this is mainly a problem when it rains. On dry days the
(left and right) indictors
flash slowly (once every 4 seconds) but not as bad as rainy days ( every 8
seconds).
My battery is good so I don't think it's a voltage issue. ( I'll still check
it). It must be a bulb issue.
???

Sometimes the flasher slows just before it stops functioning

 

[Joe]

Sounds to me like it's definitely voltage. When it rains, you've got your
wipers on, and probably the headlights too. Maybe even the defroster.

Saying your "battery is good" was totally wrong-thinking. Your battery
dictates the voltage of your electrical system when the engine is OFF. The
problem is your old alternator has 2/3 of the field coils dead, or a diode
burnt out, and what-not, and it only puts out about 20 amps. Maybe you're at
12.5 volts on a sunny day, 11.5 on a rainy night.

Your alternator just barely keeps the battery charged, and you don't notice
it, but the blinker notices it. It's actually a very good indicator of the
operating voltage of the system with the engine running. Although I don't
know why, I've found them to be pretty consistently affected by minor
voltage changes. I won't bore you with the anecdotes.

One other thing ... this is mainly a problem when it rains. On dry days the
(left and right) indictors
flash slowly (once every 4 seconds) but not as bad as rainy days ( every 8
seconds).
My battery is good so I don't think it's a voltage issue. ( I'll still check
it). It must be a bulb issue.
???

 

[Daniel J. Stern]

Sounds to me like it's definitely voltage. When it rains, you've got your
wipers on, and probably the headlights too. Maybe even the defroster.

Your battery
dictates the voltage of your electrical system when the engine is OFF. The
problem is your old alternator has 2/3 of the field coils dead,

Except that alternators do not have "field coils". They have rotors and
stators.

 

[doc]

Except that alternators do not have "field coils". They have rotors and
stators.

The field coil is attached to the rotor. It produces a magnetic field which
cuts across the coils in the stator as the rotor turns, inducing an
alternating electrical current which is fed to diodes to change it to a
pulsating direct current.

 

[Bobby D.]

So are we saying I need a new alternator?

The field coil is attached to the rotor. It produces a magnetic field which
cuts across the coils in the stator as the rotor turns, inducing an
alternating electrical current which is fed to diodes to change it to a
pulsating direct current.

 

[doc]

So are we saying I need a new alternator?

Probably. Check the voltage across the battery with the engine on, the
wipers on, and the flashers on. It should read at least 12.5 volts if your
charging system is working properly. You could also remove the old
alternator and take it to one of the auto parts stores (AutoZone, Pep Boys,
etc.) and have them test it. That's usually a free service.

doc

 

[Daniel J. Stern]

So are we saying I need a new alternator?

What is *actually* needed is proper diagnosis to figure out whether the
problem is localized to the turn signal system or whether the turn signal
problem is indicative of a systemwide issue. You've replaced the flasher
with no improvement, but you mention no other symptoms (hard starting/slow
cranking, dim headlights, etc.), so we don't yet have enough information
to nail down the problem.


Put a voltmeter across the battery with the engine off, and you should see
a reading in the close vicinity of 12.6 to 12.8 volts. Start the engine,
confirm that the turn signals are doing their slow-flash thing, then put
the voltmeter across the battery again. You should see a reading in the
range of 13.2 to 14.5. If the voltage does not increase thus with the
engine running, your alternator is not charging correctly and you then
need to move on to diagnosis of the charging system -- the problem could
be with the alternator itself, with the voltage regulation circuitry
located in the engine control computer, or with the wiring between the
two.

If the battery voltage is approximately 2 volts low with the engine off
(range of 10.2 to 10.6) your battery has a dead cell; replace it.

If the voltages (engine-off and engine-on) are as prescribed above, your
charging system is fine and you need to look elsewhere for the problem --
most likely you'll find burned out turn signal bulbs, corroded/broken
signal bulb socket wires, or corroded/broken signal bulb socket grounds.

-Stern

 

[Daniel J. Stern]

The field coil is attached to the rotor.

No, the *rotor windings* are attached to the rotor.

The stator windings, oddly enough, are attached to the stator.

Starters have field coils. So do generators. Alternators do not.

-Stern

 

[doc]

No, the *rotor windings* are attached to the rotor.

The stator windings, oddly enough, are attached to the stator.

Starters have field coils. So do generators. Alternators do not.

They do.

Some easy references (plenty more available):

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_6/chpt_4/8.html

http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/ecu/alt_field_coil.html

http://www.vtr.org/maintain/alternator-overview.html

http://web.media.mit.edu/~nathan/nepal/ghatta/altantics.html

http://www.allpar.com/eek/alternators.html

doc

 

[Bill Putney]

No, the *rotor windings* are attached to the rotor.

The stator windings, oddly enough, are attached to the stator.

Starters have field coils. So do generators. Alternators do not.

-Stern

I think this is similar to the valve lifter/lash adjuster terminology
(non)debate. Note also, to further confuse the semantics, that
alternators are now being referred to as "generators" by several of the
auto manufacturers - Chrysler for one.

For the record, I think it would be correct to say (assuming certain
understood constraints on the meanings of the words) that all
(automotive) alternators are generators, but not all generators are
alternators (if it is accepted that the term "generator" means that the
final output is d.c., and not just any rotary device that generates
electrical power, and that the term "alternator" means a rotary device
that internally generates a.c. but that the a.c. is rectified to d.c.
before reaching the outside world - i.e., that looked at as a black box,
is a d.c. generator). This is why I say that this type of discussion is
more one of semantics rather than technical correctness.

I will add that, taking words in their purest form, there is no reason
that the term "generator" could not be used to mean an unrectified (or
as they would say in the Navy "un-rectumfried) a.c. generating device,
and similarly that the term alternator would most definitely be the
appropriate term for such a device, even though in the automotive world,
it is always understood to have a final output of d.c. - which would be
a ridiculous constraint on the generic meaning of the word.

It's all context and semantics. The important thing for technical
discussions is that those engaged make clear how they define their
terminology. Even if they disagree on those constraints (and even if
the terms themselves are technically incorrect - like calling a device
that puts out d.c. power an alternator), they can understand each other
if they know what the other means when he uses a certain term.

Ten years ago, you would likely have been told on an automotive forum
that you were wrong if you called what we know as an alternator a
generator, yet today, that's what the manufacturers themselves are
calling them.

Things that make you go "hmmmm"...

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with "x")

 

[Daniel J. Stern]

I think this is similar to the valve lifter/lash adjuster terminology
(non)debate. Note also, to further confuse the semantics, that
alternators are now being referred to as "generators" by several of the
auto manufacturers - Chrysler for one.

By all automakers, actually, since it's now covered in the SAE
standardized component and system terminology standard. This is why
Chrysler, having since 1976 called a particular device an Automatic Idle
Speed (AIS) motor, now calls it an Idle Air Control (IAC) motor, same as
everyone else.

The important thing for technical discussions is that those engaged make
clear how they define their terminology.

Disagree. Let's take this idea to its obvious and ridiculous extreme:

When honing the cylinders on a Ford 2.3 litre 4-cylinder engine, it's
important to use the correct stone grit. By "honing" I mean "adjusting",
by "cylinders" I mean "valves", by "Ford 2.3 litre 4-cylinder engine" I
mean "Chrysler 225 cubic inch 6-cylinder engine", by "stone" I mean
"wrench", and by "grit" I mean "size".

Ten years ago, you would likely have been told on an automotive forum
that you were wrong if you called what we know as an alternator a
generator

Disagree. That's what General Motors has been calling them right from the
start ("Delcotron Generator").

-DS

 

[Bill Putney]

By all automakers, actually, since it's now covered in the SAE
standardized component and system terminology standard. This is why
Chrysler, having since 1976 called a particular device an Automatic Idle
Speed (AIS) motor, now calls it an Idle Air Control (IAC) motor, same as
everyone else.


Disagree. Let's take this idea to its obvious and ridiculous extreme:

When honing the cylinders on a Ford 2.3 litre 4-cylinder engine, it's
important to use the correct stone grit. By "honing" I mean "adjusting",
by "cylinders" I mean "valves", by "Ford 2.3 litre 4-cylinder engine" I
mean "Chrysler 225 cubic inch 6-cylinder engine", by "stone" I mean
"wrench", and by "grit" I mean "size".

You're right - that is a ridiculous extreme, but your point is made. I
still think my point is valid on this "rotor winding"/"field winding"
debate. Both sides are right - and I don't mean that in a New Age
I'm-OK-you're-OK feel-good sixties-were-good-to-you group-hug kind of
way. 8^)

I think doc convincingly made his point with those links, and it would
be hard to give an argument on why you can't call the rotor windings
field windings - unless one wants to define the term "field winding" in
a way that excludes their being part of a moving armature, which I think
makes my point (about defining terms). It is what creates the magnetic
field and is modulated to regulate the voltage output by the alternator.
The fact that it is rotating does not make it any less of a winding that
generates the magnetic field.

Disagree. That's what General Motors has been calling them right from the
start ("Delcotron Generator").

I did not know that (said in a Johnny Carson voice). I'd always heard
the term "alternator" emphasized as distinct from generator ever since
the auto industry changed over (when I was a kid). I'm thinking people
would have "corrected" you on the terminology (altrernator/generator)
soon after that to make sure everyone understood that the d.c.
generators were not being used (even though technically an alternator is
a generator). I could be wrong on that too.

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with "x")

 

[Guest]

No, the *rotor windings* are attached to the rotor.

The stator windings, oddly enough, are attached to the stator.

Starters have field coils. So do generators. Alternators do not.

-Stern

Dan - you are being anal again. The magnetic field required to cause
an alternator to generate power is produced by field current, flowing
through the field coil, which is located on the rotor.

You can call it anything you like - does not change the FACT that it
is a field coil.

 

[Daniel J. Stern]

You're right - that is a ridiculous extreme, but your point is made. I
still think my point is valid on this "rotor winding"/"field winding"
debate.

Had "Doc" claimed that alternators had "field windings", he'd be right.
But he didn't. He claimed they have "field coils", which they do not.
Field coils, by definition, are (Class? Anyone? Buehler?) Coils.

The rotor windings in an alternator are many things. They are metallic,
they are insulated, and they are ever so cute, but they are not coils.

Open an alternator up someday and take a look.

 

[doc]

Had "Doc" claimed that alternators had "field windings", he'd be right.
But he didn't. He claimed they have "field coils", which they do not.
Field coils, by definition, are (Class? Anyone? Buehler?) Coils.

You didn't read a single one of those links I provided, did you?

 

[Steve]

Had "Doc" claimed that alternators had "field windings", he'd be right.
But he didn't. He claimed they have "field coils", which they do not.
Field coils, by definition, are (Class? Anyone? Buehler?) Coils.

The rotor windings in an alternator are many things. They are metallic,
they are insulated, and they are ever so cute, but they are not coils.

Open an alternator up someday and take a look.

The rotating field in a typical alternator is created by a single COIL
of copper wire wrapped around the shaft. Folded interlocking iron
"fingers" carry the resulting magnetic flux to the correct position for
it to interact with the stator coils. Its a type of "salient pole"
rotating machine, except that a single coil is used to energize all of
the iron pole-pieces instead of multiple coils carried on individual
pole pieces.