42LE tranny: Bad short shaft bearing - possible easy fix (adjuster)?

[Bill Putney]

Background: '99 Concorde - The tire/alignment shop pointed out that the DOJ had a lot of play in it when I took it in with onset of minor (but definitely there) steering wheel shaking - I had suspected a bad tire - and they offered to replace the tire under warranty even though they suspected that the DOJ could be the culprit.

Now today (my first highway speed drive after they looked at it), there's a lot of noise coming from the drive train - but *only* upon
*deceleration*, and some play in the short shaft (passenger side output shaft) - which is what they had actually noticed and mis-diagnosed as DOJ play.

I considered a bad wheel bearing, CV joint, or DOJ, but the noise-on decel made me look further - the final clue was that the DOJ wiggled -
*but* not in the joint, but the shaft right out of the differential (called the short shaft) - about 1/4" total play, whereas the play in the other (driver's) side is barely detectable. I figure that on deceleration, the differential gear gets cocked to one side and scrapes the housing inside (or some other nearby part), but doesn't scrape anything when cocked in the other direction upon acceleration - thus the noise only on decel.

ANYWAY: On studying the FSM, I notice that there is an external adjuster on that bearing. When I get some time over the holidays, I'm going to tighten the adjuster per the FSM - I figure it might fix it - worst case, I'm no worse off than right now (major repair bill in that case). BTW - I will not drive it until I try tightening the adjuster. (Also, if I am so fortunate that that works, I will change the differential fluid.)

Anyone dealt with this situation before? Is there a chance that tightening the adjuster will fix it (to avoid an expensive repair job), or is that wishful thinking? (BTW - being somewhat paranoid of repair places, even ones that I "trust", I checked the adjuster locking bolt and retainer for signs of tampering - it has clearly not been touched.)

HELP!! Please tell me I don't have an expensive repair ahead of me (but only if you mean it).

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with "x")

 

[Alex (4)]

Bill,
I have (still have!) the similar problem (may be not so severe) with my Intrepid 95SE(178k miles). In the past (30 k miles ago) I have rebuild my transmission by myself, but did not do anything special with the differential -- just open it to check the bearing/replace the seals.

What I should say about adjuster you are going to tight: it would not (at least) solve the problem - these two adjusters set the right position of the main hypoid gear pair in differential. If you tight (or loose) one adjuster, the gap between these gears would change. A strong gear noise will result from such change.

As I understand, you do not have such a noise. Neither do I, so I think, the short stub play is a result of something wrong with the stub-to-"side gear" (not a main gear!) connection. I mean a small gear inside the carrier, gear that satelite gears run around. It may be a worn stub, or gear or something else. At least when I moved the stub (with a CV drive shaft removed) this stub moved easily, not as it was moving together with a big main gear.

I had left this my porblem for later, but I believe, it is doable to remove the side cover of differential, and the main gear without taking the tranny out of a car. Looks like the clearence is just sufficient. Than in the worst case we will need to replace a short stub and a small side gear inside the carrier. I would say that it is a "weekend job," but ...

Any way I would love to hear what you did find...
Good luck,
Alex

Alex Filippenko
linck@(RoadRunner)
where (RR) is nc.rr.com

 

[Bill Putney]

Bill,
I have (still have!) the similar problem (may be not so severe) with my Intrepid 95SE(178k miles). In the past (30 k miles ago) I have rebuild my transmission by myself, but did not do anything special with the differential -- just open it to check the bearing/replace the seals...

Alex Filippenko
linck@(RoadRunner)
where (RR) is nc.rr.com

Thanks for the feedback, Alex.

I have looked a little closer since my original post, and I think you are right: the play on the stub seems to be between the stub shaft and the internal gear (vs. the gear itself flopping around). Whether it was like that from the factory or not, that certainly would not be creating the noise I am hearing. Whew!! I feel better after concluding that
*and* reading that you have the same opinion.

Last night I put a new (rebuilt) half shaft in since that was the original diagnosis of the tire/alignment shop guy that looked at it, and it was hard to tell with it on the car whether there was play in the DOJ itself, or whether it all was coming from the short shaft. Once I had the axle off, it seemed to be smooth with no play when I excercised it by hand, but since I had it out, and it has 107k miles on it, I went ahead and put in the rebuilt that I picked up from NAPA yesterday (I hope it's a good one - I hate to think that I replaced a well used but perfectly good factory one for a short-lived rebuilt - I thought about just keeping it as a spare and not getting the core refund, but that is about as much as another rebuilt - hey - life's a gamble.) 8^)
Results: No change.

Anyway...
There is a good chance that my noise is a wheel bearing - I happen to have a couple that I took out of the salvage yard spindles that I put on to upgrade my rotors to larger ones. Probably a half hour job to replace the one that I suspect. I can turn the noise on and off a little by zig-zagging the car at speed, but it's not as sharp a turn on and turn off of the noise as I've seen on the 6 front wheel bearings I've replaced on my cars over my lifetime of driving. But the fact that there is any effect at all on slight turning at speed is encouraging (that it is probably not the transaxle).

My plan is to do three more steps before concluding it is a transaxle problem. Replace the right wheel bearing (it's still the original, and the zig-zag diagnosis symptoms, though not conclusive, point to that side if it is a bearing. If problem fixed, stop. If still noise, replace left wheel bearing (I replaced it a year ago with a new one from the Chrysler dealer, but it could be bad again). Problem fixed? Stop. Problem not fixed? Consider replacing the left half shaft. Then and only then, if the problem persists, will I be prepared to spend major $$ on the transaxle. I'm hopeful, and the couple of hundred I will have spent to rule out bearings and axles will have been worth the gamble that didn't pay off. I'm still hopeful it's the right wheel bearing (as has been my personal experience with every bad wheel bearing I've replaced, there are no detectable symptoms from spinning or shaking the unloaded (jacked up) wheel by hand - so that fact doesn't sway me to think it's not the bearing).

Your problem may be the same cause as mine, or maybe not. But maybe we can learn from each other if it is the same - your post was helpful and encouraging.

I think you are right about the gear bearing adjuster - to be properly done, there's shimming involved, etc. (plus, why would it change if some major wear or failure not going on?) - you know a lot more about that than I do - I've never been into a tranny - just read and seen pictures in the FSM. If it comes down to that, I will not mess with the adjuster, and the work involved will be more than I want to handle - I will take it to a good tranny shop - already got two picked out just in case. Since my tranny itself has proven to be a good one, I would not want it replaced - would rather pay for a teardown and refurb of just the diff.

BTW - while I was replacing the half shaft last night, I checked the gear oil level in the differential (I had replaced it - the oil - about 1-1/2 years ago) - it was full to the overflow, so I ruled out that it had run dry.

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with "x")

 

[Alex (4)]

Just one more thing:

I was looking at this stub also because I have some vibration/noise from the passenger side. It happens at about 70mph and it depend on an accelerating/breaking. I believe the "play" of the short stub biases the drive shaft with a heavy CV joint out of balance, so it starts to make the noise. If it is a bearing, it would not depend on speed -- driveshaft vibration would have some resonance points, but bearing would not. In my case I definitely see that at 70 mph there is a resonance.

On the other hand - tranny job is not necessary a big $$. The differential and the rest of 42LE are separated, so you can open the differential without touching the ATF+ filled area. You can (I believe) take it apart without disturbing the gear tuning (using paint marks on the adjusters or by not moving the adjusters at all, just open the cover).

What I am trying to say - the "playing" short stub could be a cause of your noise if it has even a 1/8" displacement. (I think you do not really have 1/4"!). I also hope that you can fix it by yourself without taking the tranny off the car. At least it is what I am going to do with mine. It just does not bother me too much, so I do not have any particular time in mind to do the work...

I, however, expect to find couple parts to be replaced inside, so it would be something like Friday night: remove both drive shafts, remove long (left) stub, open differential, get the carrier out, find what is wrong. Next day, Saturday morning go to dealer, buy parts. Sunday evening everything ready. I hope It should be cheaper than replace two bearings, and both drive shafts. I assume you have a shop manual, of cource... Any way I am not going to bring my car to a transmission shop -- it would be a BIG $$.

Good luck,
Alex

my...

 

[Bill Putney]

Just one more thing:

I was looking at this stub also because I have some vibration/noise from the passenger side. It happens at about 70mph and it depend on an accelerating/breaking. I believe the "play" of the short stub biases the drive shaft with a heavy CV joint out of balance, so it starts to make the noise. If it is a bearing, it would not depend on speed -- driveshaft vibration would have some resonance points, but bearing would not. In my case I definitely see that at 70 mph there is a resonance.

That's where ours is different. Mine does not have a resonance - it's pretty much independent of speed.

On the other hand - tranny job is not necessary a big $$. The differential and the rest of 42LE are separated, so you can open the differential without touching the ATF+ filled area. You can (I believe) take it apart without disturbing the gear tuning (using paint marks on the adjusters or by not moving the adjusters at all, just open the cover).

I know they are separate compartments (ATF+4 in the tranny, gear oil in the diff). I was thinking more along the lines of you can't separate the differential and replace it as a unit and keep the tranny as-is - or
*can* you? If that was possible, that might be a better option than rebuild of diff. What are your thoughts on that?

What I am trying to say - the "playing" short stub could be a cause of your noise if it has even a 1/8" displacement. (I think you do not really have 1/4"!)

I agree - I should have been more specific - it's probably less than 1/8" at the end of the stub. Due to a mulitplication effect of the length, the 1/4" movement was at the outboard end of the DOJ where it joins up with the axle segment between DOJ and CVJ. One of the transmission shop giys I talked to did say that if there were real problems in that area (gear/output shaft bearing), the seal would typically be leaking due to the wobbling motion. With the axle removed and looking into the shaft/seal area with good light, there was no sign of leaking gear oil.

I also hope that you can fix it by yourself without taking the tranny off the car. At least it is what I am going to do with mine. It just does not bother me too much, so I do not have any particular time in mind to do the work...

5, 10 years ago, I'd be game. Truth is, I am not into digging too deep in my own repairs anymore. I'll push myself to replace a wheel bearing or axle, but not into tranny/engine removal.

I, however, expect to find couple parts to be replaced inside, so it would be something like Friday night: remove both drive shafts, remove long (left) stub, open differential, get the carrier out, find what is wrong. Next day, Saturday morning go to dealer, buy parts. Sunday evening everything ready. I hope It should be cheaper than replace two bearings, and both drive shafts...

Shimming, preload, measuring and setting backlash - looks pretty involved. Special tools for removing, re-tightening bearing retainer...

I assume you have a shop manual, of cource... Any way I am not going to bring my car to a transmission shop -- it would be a BIG $$.

Yep - have a shop manual - been reading the transaxle section to help me visualize, analyze, etc. If it comes to the tranny and diff being worked on, I have no choice - have to pay someone to do it - like I say 5 or 10 years ago, maybe.

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with "x")

 

[Alex (4)]

the differential and replace it as a unit and keep the tranny as-is - or
*can* you? If that was possible, that might be a better option than rebuild of diff. What are your thoughts on that?

No, you cannot do it. But if you do not move adjusters (at least one of them) you do not need to do all this sheams/preload stuff. External dimensions of the carrier will not change if you change the short stub or internal (small, which is in contact with satellites) gear, and you will need just put everything back in the old position. So, assuming your oil is clean, bearings are Ok, seals are not leaking, the differential job does not look too big. Not even close to, let say, removing the tranny from a vehicle. On the othe hand your seal does not leak, mine neither. So may be it is not too bad? Are you sure your noise is really bad?

5, 10 years ago, I'd be game. Truth is, I am not into digging too deep

Well, 5, 10 years ago it was easier for me too, agree, but hey, we are not old!

Merri Christmas,
Alex

 

[Bill Putney]

No, you cannot do it. But if you do not move adjusters (at least one of them) you do not need to do all this sheams/preload stuff. External dimensions of the carrier will not change if you change the short stub or internal (small, which is in contact with satellites) gear, and you will need just put everything back in the old position. So, assuming your oil is clean, bearings are Ok, seals are not leaking, the differential job does not look too big. Not even close to, let say, removing the tranny from a vehicle. On the othe hand your seal does not leak, mine neither. So may be it is not too bad? Are you sure your noise is really bad?

Well, 5, 10 years ago it was easier for me too, agree, but hey, we are not old!

Merri Christmas,
Alex

Well - boy, do I feel stupid. After replacing the right wheel bearing with one from the salvage yard steering knuckle, the problem was still there. I went to start on the left wheel bearing and guess what: The lugnuts were loose!!!!!!! Checked the rear two wheels - lugnuts loose on all three! I had had the tires rotated and balanced just before the problem started. I took it back for them to look at because the steering wheel had a slight shake, and I noticed some slight out-of-roundness in the right front tire when I jacked the front wheels up to check for that. So they took that one off to look at for out-of-roundness on the balancer, they noticed what they thought was excess play in the right DOJ, and put that tire back on - offered to order me a new tire even though they thought the DOJ was bad. The lug nuts were tight on that one from that re-install - I didn't check the others because I was so focused on the DOJ and bearing on that side, and I trusted them.

Sometimes it's the simple things! Like I said - I feel stupid. $80 (rebuilt half shaft) and about 5 hours work for a 5 minute problem!! I need to have a little talk with the tire/alignment shop. There is still a little shake - either due to the slight out-of-round, or could be that the same guy who left the lug nuts loose also did the balancing and did a crappy job (drunk that day?). I'll suggest they do a rebalance on all four, and if still a slight shake, then I will take them up on their offer to replace the tire that looked to be out-of-round.

I guess I should be glad it's nothing major like I was thinking.

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with "x")

 

[Steve m...]

Bill,
Just so you know, my Cooper Lifeliners started exhibiting a minor shake as well. It probably is the tires.

Steve

 

[Bill Putney]

Bill,
Just so you know, my Cooper Lifeliners started exhibiting a minor shake as well. It probably is the tires.

Steve

Say it isn't so! They've been such great tires up until now. Between now and Monday, I will take another look at them (for out-of-roundness) spinning with the wheels off the ground, and will swap two at a time front-to-rear for shaking effect. Once I narrow down which one it is for sure (probably front right), I will still suggest that they re-balance it as a last resort before replacing it (under their warranty).

Steve - did you get any of yours replaced under warranty? If so, how hard did you have to push? One of the reasons I went with them was that it was clear from several sources that manufacturers of "high performance" (i.e., high dollar, super short tread life) tires (such as the Dunlop Sport A2's that went south on me) would not make any warranty adjustments short of catastrophic self-destruction. I hope to find that the same isn't true of the touring tires (so far, it sounds like the dealer is willing to adjust these).

These sure seem to be extremely slow wearing - would be a shame if they can't stand up structurally to give the tread life that they otherwise seem to deliver.

Just curious if you got satisfaction on yours (i.e., warranty adjustment).

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with "x")

 

[Steve m...]

Bill,
Actually, mine also have another problem which I haven't mentioned. They are making the dreaded "whump whump" noise. Usually caused by bad belts. They started doing that in the fall when it started getting colder. Now that it's really winter here they do it almost all the time now. It's really annoying at higher speeds (60mph). I haven't checked at the tire dealer if they'd take and swap them out for a low cost only because I'm currently trying to sell it as I received my company car again (Pontiac Grand Prix). So, I may or may not attempt to get them replaced. Mine also have worn very well. I have about 22k on them and they still go great in the snow. I drove it to Akron OH a couple weeks ago in a blinding snowstorm. They have great snow and rain traction.

Steve m....
Ps... If you know anyone in the Pittsburgh area looking for a well maintained LHS let me know.

 

[Art Begun]

Guess they put them on loose until they got out the torque wrench to protect the rotors.... but they skipped the second step that day.

 

[Bill Putney]

Guess they put them on loose until they got out the torque wrench to protect the rotors.... but they skipped the second step that day.

That sounds like what very well could have happened, Art. They did an alignment *after* the balance & rotate, so I hope they initially were not really loose (maybe only finger tight, but tight enough to hold the wheels against the rotors) to where it would have thrown the alignment measurements off - I'll suggest when I take it back that they might want to just put it on the alignment rack and check the numbers just in case.

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with "x")

 

[Joe (archive)]

I think it's interesting, going back to the original post, that you have 1/4" slop in the shaft to differential fit and it wasn't causing a problem. I have this on my LH cars too, and I can't imagine how they could have such a sloppy fit between these two particular parts. It doesn't seem right. But as I said, my cars are the same way.

 

[Bill Putney]

I think it's interesting, going back to the original post, that you have 1/4" slop in the shaft to differential fit and it wasn't causing a problem. I have this on my LH cars too, and I can't imagine how they could have such a sloppy fit between these two particular parts. It doesn't seem right. But as I said, my cars are the same way.

I don't know if you caught it in an earlier post, but that 1/4" was the total movement all the way out at the distal end of the DOJ (inner CV joint) - not right at the differential case. With the axle off of the short shaft stub, I'd estimate the total play to have been a deal less than 1/8" at the end of the short shaft - it just gets multiplied and looks worse with the section of axle length added on. I wobbled it around with the axle removed and while looking at the seal, and was amazed at the contortions that the seal was going thru to accommodate the displacement, but there were no gaps in the seal and no sign of any leaking - apparently the seal is designed for it. All of the play apparently is in the spline interface between the short shaft and the gear (safe to assume that the gear bearing play is minimal or zero) - no doubt a loose fit due to tolerancing driving the fit dimensions and the particular manufacturing techniques that they prefer to use to keep costs down as long as real problems (noticeable vibrations) are not created.

But you're right - it does look like a lot of off-center movement for something turning at 800 rpm (at 60+ mph if I did my math right) - it is some mass, but I guess what keeps it from becoming a big deal (vibration-wise) is that it's all pretty close in to the center of rotation. Makes me wonder if the $50,000 cars might have a tighter fit to get rid of some second or third order vibration effects that could harm customer perception.

Thinking back, I've noticed similar looseness in the output shafts of other cars that I have owned and on which I had occasion to poke around in that area (a Cadillac and a Subaru come to mind).

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with "x")

 

[Joe (archive)]

My thoughts exactly. It has to be orbiting off-center and vibrating on the road, we just don't notice it.

 

[Bill Putney]

Bill,
Actually, mine also have another problem which I haven't mentioned. They are making the dreaded "whump whump" noise. Usually caused by bad belts. They started doing that in the fall when it started getting colder. Now that it's really winter here they do it almost all the time now. It's really annoying at higher speeds (60mph). I haven't checked at the tire dealer if they'd take and swap them out for a low cost only because I'm currently trying to sell it as I received my company car again (Pontiac Grand Prix). So, I may or may not attempt to get them replaced. Mine also have worn very well. I have about 22k on them and they still go great in the snow. I drove it to Akron OH a couple weeks ago in a blinding snowstorm. They have great snow and rain traction.

Steve m....
Ps... If you know anyone in the Pittsburgh area looking for a well maintained LHS let me know.

Just a followup:
The tire alignment shop replaced one of the front tires at no charge last week. I measured 9 places (inner, middle, outer tread at 120° intervals) on all four tires, and without a single exception, they were all between 8 and 9 thirty-seconds of tread depth (11/32 when new). I thought the eveness of wear was pretty good. I had called Cooper HQ about the problem before taking it in for the adjustment just to get an idea of what I was in for (and to ask about their voluntary recall - see below), and the guy at Cooper told me that at 8/32, if the tire was defective, I was still within the 100% coverage for problems - and he proved correct.

I still have a slight shake in the front - much, much less than it was. I suspect it is due to some out-of-roundness on the other front tire. I will swap that with a rear tire before this weekend to convince myself that it is due to the tire (and not due to other problems, such as a rotor). If I can honestly make a case for that one being out-of-round too, I will do so this weekend with the tire shop while I'm still in the 100% replacement part of the treadwear. Although it was visibly rounder than the one that was replaced already, it did have some definite visible out-of-roundness, whereas the rears were as close to round as you typically ever see.

When I was on the Cooper web site, I searched for their warranty terms, but did not find them. Guess they want you to go thru the dealer.
*BUT* I did find that they have a voluntary recall to avoid a class action suit on any radial tire made between January 1, 1985 through January 6, 2002 (http://www.coopertires.com/us/en/warranty.asp and http://www.coopertires.com/us/en/corporate/news/news-release.asp?id=219)
- probably earlier than your or my tires were made, but they probably are having to try real hard to regain public confidence and are willing to be reasonable for obvious problems even if marginal. In my talking to their guy on the phone, I got the distinct impression that that is to cover tread separation - not out-of-round per-se. I don't know if the problem you are having falls into the tread separation catagory - maybe a broken belt.

Anyway - if you're still reading, Steve, do have any particulars on your LHS - year, color, asking price, etc.?

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with "x")

 

[Steve m...]

Bill,
Actually, I've sold the LHS. It's still here but it won't be for much longer. Got 3k for it. That's what I wanted out of it. I put it on the web at Auto Trader.com and the first person who came out to see it bought it. It's really in nice condition for 10 years old. Good luck with your tires. Overall I still like Coopers. Had a set of them on our Jeep. They were from Pep Boys and were an excellent tire. Got almost 50k out of that set.

Steve m....