42LE tranny: Bad short shaft bearing - possible easy fix (adjuster)?

Discussion in 'General Motoring' started by Bill Putney, Dec 23, 2003.

  1. Bill Putney

    Bill Putney Guest

    Background: '99 Concorde - The tire/alignment shop pointed out that the
    DOJ had a lot of play in it when I took it in with onset of minor (but
    definitely there) steering wheel shaking - I had suspected a bad tire -
    and they offered to replace the tire under warranty even though they
    suspected that the DOJ could be the culprit.

    Now today (my first highway speed drive after they looked at it),
    there's a lot of noise coming from the drive train - but *only* upon
    *deceleration*, and some play in the short shaft (passenger side output
    shaft) - which is what they had actually noticed and mis-diagnosed as
    DOJ play.

    I considered a bad wheel bearing, CV joint, or DOJ, but the noise-on
    decel made me look further - the final clue was that the DOJ wiggled -
    *but* not in the joint, but the shaft right out of the differential
    (called the short shaft) - about 1/4" total play, whereas the play in
    the other (driver's) side is barely detectable. I figure that on
    deceleration, the differential gear gets cocked to one side and scrapes
    the housing inside (or some other nearby part), but doesn't scrape
    anything when cocked in the other direction upon acceleration - thus the
    noise only on decel.

    ANYWAY: On studying the FSM, I notice that there is an external adjuster
    on that bearing. When I get some time over the holidays, I'm going to
    tighten the adjuster per the FSM - I figure it might fix it - worst
    case, I'm no worse off than right now (major repair bill in that case).
    BTW - I will not drive it until I try tightening the adjuster. (Also, if
    I am so fortunate that that works, I will change the differential
    fluid.)

    Anyone dealt with this situation before? Is there a chance that
    tightening the adjuster will fix it (to avoid an expensive repair job),
    or is that wishful thinking? (BTW - being somewhat paranoid of repair
    places, even ones that I "trust", I checked the adjuster locking bolt
    and retainer for signs of tampering - it has clearly not been touched.)

    HELP!! Please tell me I don't have an expensive repair ahead of me (but
    only if you mean it).

    Bill Putney
    (to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
    address with "x")
     
    Bill Putney, Dec 23, 2003
    #1
  2. Bill Putney

    Alex Guest

    Bill,
    I have (still have!) the similar problem (may be not so severe) with my
    Intrepid 95SE(178k miles). In the past (30 k miles ago) I have rebuild my
    transmission by myself, but did not do anything special with the
    differential -- just open it to check the bearing/replace the seals.

    What I should say about adjuster you are going to tight: it would not (at
    least) solve the problem - these two adjusters set the right position of the
    main hypoid gear pair in differential. If you tight (or loose) one adjuster,
    the gap between these gears would change. A strong gear noise will result
    from such change.

    As I understand, you do not have such a noise. Neither do I, so I think, the
    short stub play is a result of something wrong with the stub-to-"side gear"
    (not a main gear!) connection. I mean a small gear inside the carrier, gear
    that satelite gears run around. It may be a worn stub, or gear or something
    else. At least when I moved the stub (with a CV drive shaft removed) this
    stub moved easily, not as it was moving together with a big main gear.

    I had left this my porblem for later, but I believe, it is doable to remove
    the side cover of differential, and the main gear without taking the tranny
    out of a car. Looks like the clearence is just sufficient. Than in the worst
    case we will need to replace a short stub and a small side gear inside the
    carrier. I would say that it is a "weekend job," but ...

    Any way I would love to hear what you did find...
    Good luck,
    Alex

    Alex Filippenko
    linck@(RoadRunner)
    where (RR) is nc.rr.com
     
    Alex, Dec 24, 2003
    #2
  3. Bill Putney

    Bill Putney Guest

    Thanks for the feedback, Alex.

    I have looked a little closer since my original post, and I think you
    are right: the play on the stub seems to be between the stub shaft and
    the internal gear (vs. the gear itself flopping around). Whether it was
    like that from the factory or not, that certainly would not be creating
    the noise I am hearing. Whew!! I feel better after concluding that
    *and* reading that you have the same opinion.

    Last night I put a new (rebuilt) half shaft in since that was the
    original diagnosis of the tire/alignment shop guy that looked at it, and
    it was hard to tell with it on the car whether there was play in the DOJ
    itself, or whether it all was coming from the short shaft. Once I had
    the axle off, it seemed to be smooth with no play when I excercised it
    by hand, but since I had it out, and it has 107k miles on it, I went
    ahead and put in the rebuilt that I picked up from NAPA yesterday (I
    hope it's a good one - I hate to think that I replaced a well used but
    perfectly good factory one for a short-lived rebuilt - I thought about
    just keeping it as a spare and not getting the core refund, but that is
    about as much as another rebuilt - hey - life's a gamble.) 8^)
    Results: No change.

    Anyway...
    There is a good chance that my noise is a wheel bearing - I happen to
    have a couple that I took out of the salvage yard spindles that I put on
    to upgrade my rotors to larger ones. Probably a half hour job to
    replace the one that I suspect. I can turn the noise on and off a
    little by zig-zagging the car at speed, but it's not as sharp a turn on
    and turn off of the noise as I've seen on the 6 front wheel bearings
    I've replaced on my cars over my lifetime of driving. But the fact that
    there is any effect at all on slight turning at speed is encouraging
    (that it is probably not the transaxle).

    My plan is to do three more steps before concluding it is a transaxle
    problem. Replace the right wheel bearing (it's still the original, and
    the zig-zag diagnosis symptoms, though not conclusive, point to that
    side if it is a bearing. If problem fixed, stop. If still noise,
    replace left wheel bearing (I replaced it a year ago with a new one from
    the Chrysler dealer, but it could be bad again). Problem fixed? Stop.
    Problem not fixed? Consider replacing the left half shaft. Then and
    only then, if the problem persists, will I be prepared to spend major $$
    on the transaxle. I'm hopeful, and the couple of hundred I will have
    spent to rule out bearings and axles will have been worth the gamble
    that didn't pay off. I'm still hopeful it's the right wheel bearing (as
    has been my personal experience with every bad wheel bearing I've
    replaced, there are no detectable symptoms from spinning or shaking the
    unloaded (jacked up) wheel by hand - so that fact doesn't sway me to
    think it's not the bearing).

    Your problem may be the same cause as mine, or maybe not. But maybe we
    can learn from each other if it is the same - your post was helpful and
    encouraging.

    I think you are right about the gear bearing adjuster - to be properly
    done, there's shimming involved, etc. (plus, why would it change if some
    major wear or failure not going on?) - you know a lot more about that
    than I do - I've never been into a tranny - just read and seen pictures
    in the FSM. If it comes down to that, I will not mess with the
    adjuster, and the work involved will be more than I want to handle - I
    will take it to a good tranny shop - already got two picked out just in
    case. Since my tranny itself has proven to be a good one, I would not
    want it replaced - would rather pay for a teardown and refurb of just
    the diff.

    BTW - while I was replacing the half shaft last night, I checked the
    gear oil level in the differential (I had replaced it - the oil - about
    1-1/2 years ago) - it was full to the overflow, so I ruled out that it
    had run dry.

    Bill Putney
    (to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
    address with "x")
     
    Bill Putney, Dec 24, 2003
    #3
  4. Bill Putney

    Alex Guest

    Just one more thing:

    I was looking at this stub also because I have some vibration/noise from the
    passenger side. It happens at about 70mph and it depend on an
    accelerating/breaking. I believe the "play" of the short stub biases the
    drive shaft with a heavy CV joint out of balance, so it starts to make the
    noise. If it is a bearing, it would not depend on speed -- driveshaft
    vibration would have some resonance points, but bearing would not. In my
    case I definitely see that at 70 mph there is a resonance.

    On the other hand - tranny job is not necessary a big $$. The differential
    and the rest of 42LE are separated, so you can open the differential without
    touching the ATF+ filled area. You can (I believe) take it apart without
    disturbing the gear tuning (using paint marks on the adjusters or by not
    moving the adjusters at all, just open the cover).

    What I am trying to say - the "playing" short stub could be a cause of your
    noise if it has even a 1/8" displacement. (I think you do not really have
    1/4"!). I also hope that you can fix it by yourself without taking the
    tranny off the car. At least it is what I am going to do with mine. It just
    does not bother me too much, so I do not have any particular time in mind to
    do the work...

    I, however, expect to find couple parts to be replaced inside, so it would
    be something like Friday night: remove both drive shafts, remove long (left)
    stub, open differential, get the carrier out, find what is wrong. Next day,
    Saturday morning go to dealer, buy parts. Sunday evening everything ready.
    I hope It should be cheaper than replace two bearings, and both drive
    shafts. I assume you have a shop manual, of cource... Any way I am not going
    to bring my car to a transmission shop -- it would be a BIG $$.

    Good luck,
    Alex



    my...
     
    Alex, Dec 24, 2003
    #4
  5. Bill Putney

    Bill Putney Guest

    That's where ours is different. Mine does not have a resonance - it's
    pretty much independent of speed.
    I know they are separate compartments (ATF+4 in the tranny, gear oil in
    the diff). I was thinking more along the lines of you can't separate
    the differential and replace it as a unit and keep the tranny as-is - or
    *can* you? If that was possible, that might be a better option than
    rebuild of diff. What are your thoughts on that?
    I agree - I should have been more specific - it's probably less than
    1/8" at the end of the stub. Due to a mulitplication effect of the
    length, the 1/4" movement was at the outboard end of the DOJ where it
    joins up with the axle segment between DOJ and CVJ. One of the
    transmission shop giys I talked to did say that if there were real
    problems in that area (gear/output shaft bearing), the seal would
    typically be leaking due to the wobbling motion. With the axle removed
    and looking into the shaft/seal area with good light, there was no sign
    of leaking gear oil.
    5, 10 years ago, I'd be game. Truth is, I am not into digging too deep
    in my own repairs anymore. I'll push myself to replace a wheel bearing
    or axle, but not into tranny/engine removal.
    Shimming, preload, measuring and setting backlash - looks pretty
    involved. Special tools for removing, re-tightening bearing retainer...
    Yep - have a shop manual - been reading the transaxle section to help me
    visualize, analyze, etc. If it comes to the tranny and diff being
    worked on, I have no choice - have to pay someone to do it - like I say
    5 or 10 years ago, maybe.

    Bill Putney
    (to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
    address with "x")
     
    Bill Putney, Dec 24, 2003
    #5
  6. Bill Putney

    Alex Guest

    No, you cannot do it. But if you do not move adjusters (at least one of
    them) you do not need to do all this sheams/preload stuff. External
    dimensions of the carrier will not change if you change the short stub or
    internal (small, which is in contact with satellites) gear, and you will
    need just put everything back in the old position. So, assuming your oil is
    clean, bearings are Ok, seals are not leaking, the differential job does not
    look too big. Not even close to, let say, removing the tranny from a
    vehicle.
    On the othe hand your seal does not leak, mine neither. So may be it is not
    too bad? Are you sure your noise is really bad?
    Well, 5, 10 years ago it was easier for me too, agree, but hey, we are not
    old!

    Merri Christmas,
    Alex
     
    Alex, Dec 24, 2003
    #6
  7. Bill Putney

    Bill Putney Guest

    Well - boy, do I feel stupid. After replacing the right wheel bearing
    with one from the salvage yard steering knuckle, the problem was still
    there. I went to start on the left wheel bearing and guess what: The
    lugnuts were loose!!!!!!! Checked the rear two wheels - lugnuts loose
    on all three! I had had the tires rotated and balanced just before the
    problem started. I took it back for them to look at because the
    steering wheel had a slight shake, and I noticed some slight
    out-of-roundness in the right front tire when I jacked the front wheels
    up to check for that. So they took that one off to look at for
    out-of-roundness on the balancer, they noticed what they thought was
    excess play in the right DOJ, and put that tire back on - offered to
    order me a new tire even though they thought the DOJ was bad. The lug
    nuts were tight on that one from that re-install - I didn't check the
    others because I was so focused on the DOJ and bearing on that side, and
    I trusted them.

    Sometimes it's the simple things! Like I said - I feel stupid. $80
    (rebuilt half shaft) and about 5 hours work for a 5 minute problem!! I
    need to have a little talk with the tire/alignment shop. There is still
    a little shake - either due to the slight out-of-round, or could be that
    the same guy who left the lug nuts loose also did the balancing and did
    a crappy job (drunk that day?). I'll suggest they do a rebalance on all
    four, and if still a slight shake, then I will take them up on their
    offer to replace the tire that looked to be out-of-round.

    I guess I should be glad it's nothing major like I was thinking.

    Bill Putney
    (to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
    address with "x")
     
    Bill Putney, Dec 24, 2003
    #7
  8. Bill Putney

    Steve m... Guest

    Bill,
    Just so you know, my Cooper Lifeliners started exhibiting a minor shake
    as well. It probably is the tires.

    Steve
     
    Steve m..., Dec 24, 2003
    #8
  9. Bill Putney

    Bill Putney Guest

    Say it isn't so! They've been such great tires up until now. Between
    now and Monday, I will take another look at them (for out-of-roundness)
    spinning with the wheels off the ground, and will swap two at a time
    front-to-rear for shaking effect. Once I narrow down which one it is
    for sure (probably front right), I will still suggest that they
    re-balance it as a last resort before replacing it (under their
    warranty).

    Steve - did you get any of yours replaced under warranty? If so, how
    hard did you have to push? One of the reasons I went with them was that
    it was clear from several sources that manufacturers of "high
    performance" (i.e., high dollar, super short tread life) tires (such as
    the Dunlop Sport A2's that went south on me) would not make any warranty
    adjustments short of catastrophic self-destruction. I hope to find that
    the same isn't true of the touring tires (so far, it sounds like the
    dealer is willing to adjust these).

    These sure seem to be extremely slow wearing - would be a shame if they
    can't stand up structurally to give the tread life that they otherwise
    seem to deliver.

    Just curious if you got satisfaction on yours (i.e., warranty
    adjustment).

    Bill Putney
    (to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
    address with "x")
     
    Bill Putney, Dec 25, 2003
    #9
  10. Bill Putney

    Steve m... Guest

    Bill,
    Actually, mine also have another problem which I haven't mentioned. They
    are making the dreaded "whump whump" noise. Usually caused by bad belts.
    They started doing that in the fall when it started getting colder. Now
    that it's really winter here they do it almost all the time now. It's
    really annoying at higher speeds (60mph). I haven't checked at the tire
    dealer if they'd take and swap them out for a low cost only because I'm
    currently trying to sell it as I received my company car again (Pontiac
    Grand Prix). So, I may or may not attempt to get them replaced. Mine also
    have worn very well. I have about 22k on them and they still go great in
    the snow. I drove it to Akron OH a couple weeks ago in a blinding
    snowstorm. They have great snow and rain traction.

    Steve m....
    Ps... If you know anyone in the Pittsburgh area looking for a well
    maintained LHS let me know.
     
    Steve m..., Dec 25, 2003
    #10
  11. Bill Putney

    Art Begun Guest

    Guess they put them on loose until they got out the torque wrench to
    protect the rotors.... but they skipped the second step that day.
     
    Art Begun, Dec 25, 2003
    #11
  12. Bill Putney

    Bill Putney Guest

    That sounds like what very well could have happened, Art. They did an
    alignment *after* the balance & rotate, so I hope they initially were
    not really loose (maybe only finger tight, but tight enough to hold the
    wheels against the rotors) to where it would have thrown the alignment
    measurements off - I'll suggest when I take it back that they might want
    to just put it on the alignment rack and check the numbers just in case.

    Bill Putney
    (to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
    address with "x")
     
    Bill Putney, Dec 25, 2003
    #12
  13. Bill Putney

    Joe Guest

    I think it's interesting, going back to the original post, that you have
    1/4" slop in the shaft to differential fit and it wasn't causing a problem.
    I have this on my LH cars too, and I can't imagine how they could have such
    a sloppy fit between these two particular parts. It doesn't seem right. But
    as I said, my cars are the same way.
     
    Joe, Dec 28, 2003
    #13
  14. Bill Putney

    Bill Putney Guest

    I don't know if you caught it in an earlier post, but that 1/4" was the
    total movement all the way out at the distal end of the DOJ (inner CV
    joint) - not right at the differential case. With the axle off of the
    short shaft stub, I'd estimate the total play to have been a deal less
    than 1/8" at the end of the short shaft - it just gets multiplied and
    looks worse with the section of axle length added on. I wobbled it
    around with the axle removed and while looking at the seal, and was
    amazed at the contortions that the seal was going thru to accommodate
    the displacement, but there were no gaps in the seal and no sign of any
    leaking - apparently the seal is designed for it. All of the play
    apparently is in the spline interface between the short shaft and the
    gear (safe to assume that the gear bearing play is minimal or zero) - no
    doubt a loose fit due to tolerancing driving the fit dimensions and the
    particular manufacturing techniques that they prefer to use to keep
    costs down as long as real problems (noticeable vibrations) are not
    created.

    But you're right - it does look like a lot of off-center movement for
    something turning at 800 rpm (at 60+ mph if I did my math right) - it is
    some mass, but I guess what keeps it from becoming a big deal
    (vibration-wise) is that it's all pretty close in to the center of
    rotation. Makes me wonder if the $50,000 cars might have a tighter fit
    to get rid of some second or third order vibration effects that could
    harm customer perception.

    Thinking back, I've noticed similar looseness in the output shafts of
    other cars that I have owned and on which I had occasion to poke around
    in that area (a Cadillac and a Subaru come to mind).

    Bill Putney
    (to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
    address with "x")
     
    Bill Putney, Dec 28, 2003
    #14
  15. Bill Putney

    Joe Guest

    My thoughts exactly. It has to be orbiting off-center and vibrating on the
    road, we just don't notice it.
     
    Joe, Dec 29, 2003
    #15
  16. Bill Putney

    Bill Putney Guest

    Just a followup:
    The tire alignment shop replaced one of the front tires at no charge
    last week. I measured 9 places (inner, middle, outer tread at 120°
    intervals) on all four tires, and without a single exception, they were
    all between 8 and 9 thirty-seconds of tread depth (11/32 when new). I
    thought the eveness of wear was pretty good. I had called Cooper HQ
    about the problem before taking it in for the adjustment just to get an
    idea of what I was in for (and to ask about their voluntary recall - see
    below), and the guy at Cooper told me that at 8/32, if the tire was
    defective, I was still within the 100% coverage for problems - and he
    proved correct.

    I still have a slight shake in the front - much, much less than it was.
    I suspect it is due to some out-of-roundness on the other front tire. I
    will swap that with a rear tire before this weekend to convince myself
    that it is due to the tire (and not due to other problems, such as a
    rotor). If I can honestly make a case for that one being out-of-round
    too, I will do so this weekend with the tire shop while I'm still in the
    100% replacement part of the treadwear. Although it was visibly rounder
    than the one that was replaced already, it did have some definite
    visible out-of-roundness, whereas the rears were as close to round as
    you typically ever see.

    When I was on the Cooper web site, I searched for their warranty terms,
    but did not find them. Guess they want you to go thru the dealer.
    *BUT* I did find that they have a voluntary recall to avoid a class
    action suit on any radial tire made between January 1, 1985 through
    January 6, 2002 (http://www.coopertires.com/us/en/warranty.asp and
    http://www.coopertires.com/us/en/corporate/news/news-release.asp?id=219)
    - probably earlier than your or my tires were made, but they probably
    are having to try real hard to regain public confidence and are willing
    to be reasonable for obvious problems even if marginal. In my talking
    to their guy on the phone, I got the distinct impression that that is to
    cover tread separation - not out-of-round per-se. I don't know if the
    problem you are having falls into the tread separation catagory - maybe
    a broken belt.

    Anyway - if you're still reading, Steve, do have any particulars on your
    LHS - year, color, asking price, etc.?

    Bill Putney
    (to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
    address with "x")
     
    Bill Putney, Jan 6, 2004
    #16
  17. Bill Putney

    Steve m... Guest

    Bill,
    Actually, I've sold the LHS. It's still here but it won't be for much
    longer. Got 3k for it. That's what I wanted out of it. I put it on the
    web at Auto Trader.com and the first person who came out to see it bought
    it. It's really in nice condition for 10 years old.
    Good luck with your tires. Overall I still like Coopers. Had a set of
    them on our Jeep. They were from Pep Boys and were an excellent tire. Got
    almost 50k out of that set.

    Steve m....
     
    Steve m..., Jan 6, 2004
    #17
Ask a Question

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

You'll need to choose a username for the site, which only take a couple of moments (here). After that, you can post your question and our members will help you out.