300M timing belt replacement

Our '02 300M is due to have its timing belt replaced soon. The dealer --
which is no longer a Chrysler dealer -- quoted me $750 to replace the
timing belt and water pump, presumably using over-priced "genuine Mopar"
parts.

The parts at AutoZone are less than $200, but, having read through the
relevant section of the service manual, I don't think this is a job I
want to tackle myself. Am I overestimating the difficulty?

What is a reasonable price to have this job done by an independent shop?

Perce

 

I just had my Stratus done recently. Alot of the cost was in parts.
There was an upgrade to the belt tensioner from 2003 that was
included. This also required that the timing belt covers be replaced
too.

If your 300M only needs the belt and water pump, $750 seems high to
me.

-KM

 

Actually, for a dealer, it isn't too far out of line - depending on
exactly what is being replaced (probably not much - keep reading).

I had my 3.2 (same exact engine as your 3.5, just different bore/piston
size) done about 3 years ago. I purchased my own OEM parts from an
on-line discount dealer (30% below list plus actual shipping vs. list
+20 or 30% plus sales tax from a local dealer) - total parts was about
$360. I included belt, water pump, tensioner pulley, hydraulic
tensioner (which alone is almost $100), both accessory belts, both
radiator hoses, and thermostat (a bear to replace on these cars).

Took the parts to an independent shop that frankly underbid the job at
$300 flat rate (should have been probably $400-450).

So I got by for about $700 total parts + labor.

Two things to consider:
(1) Most likely your dealer isn't including the hydraulic tensioner for
that price (most people re-use the old one, and frankly, they very
seldom give problems) - but make darn sure you have the timing belt
tensioner *pulley* replaced - that *is* a finite-life part. Nor will
they include the accessory belts, radiator hoses, and t-stat unless you
pay more.
(2) Whether you have the dealer do it, or an independent shop do it, or
DIY, I *highly* recommend using OEM parts for the belt and the water
pump. I hang out on three LH car-specific forums, and there is story
after story after story on the belt pitch accuracy/length being off
enough to require re-timing of the cam sprockets (requires special tool
- no substitute or makeshift tool for this particular tool) *and* the
water pumps failing very early and/or not fitting right - and those
problems were even with the Gates parts that everybody (including
myself) usually swears by).

So you have to decide: Go with that price knowing you'll get OEM parts,
but you will not get new rad. hoses, t-stat, or hydraulic t-belt
tensioner, or get your own OEM parts from a good online discount dealer,
like www.mopardiscountparts.com (yes - they are still in business - 30%
below list - no gimmicks) and end up replacing a lot more critical parts
for the same $$ if you can get a good independent shop to accept your
parts and just charge labor (probably about $400-450).

And I repeat: on this particular job, do not use aftermarket parts -
even Gates (except accessory belts and hoses). T-stat: OEM - gets
installed pointing towards engine - which is opposite of the factory
t-stat (different design) - if someone doesn't believe me, have them
check the FSM. Many people on the LH car forums did the opposite and
had overheating problems - turned it around: good to go.

You can knock about $80 of the parts prices I gave if you re-use your
old hydraulic tensioner (not the tensioner pulley, the hydraulic
tensioner), and that would be an OK tradeoff - like I said, that
particular part is pretty reliable and long-lived.

Come see us at http://300mclub.org/forums/index.php?

FWIW . . .

 

I just replaced the tensioner and belt myself in my 94 T&C AWD. The most
difficult
part about the job was figuring out how to get at the tensioner bolt, it
took an hour
or two of false starts. The service manual was not helpful and all the
online posts
assume non-AWD and tell you to use long extensions and u-joints and such
nonsense.

I ended up simply using a standard wrench and reaching up in there and doing
it by feel.
Of course I had to flip the wrench back and forth 50 times or so since I
could only
move the nut a few degrees. I have gear wrenches but they wouldn't have
helped here.

If I had gone into the job knowing the trick it would have been 2 hours,
tops, in
the driveway.

Total on parts was a bit less than $100. I've done a water pump before on
that
van and it's easy.

$750 sounds way high to me. However, since the economy is not doing well
right now,
a lot of people are having older cars fixed rather than scrapped, and most
mechanics
have plenty of work, and can pick and choose - hence the higher price.

Ted

 

<snip>

Different chassis, different engine, different belt,
different-different-different.

Of course you think $750 is too high... you have no idea what you're
talking about.

 

I think you'll agree that my post is apples to apples.

 

No problem at all with your post Bill. Very accurate and to the point.

On the other hand, Ted seems to have a severe case of "I changed a belt
once."

 

I hope you have better luck with yours than we had with ours. Our '96
Stratus ES (6-cyl. Mitsushitty engine) had had its timing belt replaced
(allegedly) when the water pump was replaced at about 55K miles. At 85K
the belt broke and the vehicle was deemed to be not worth fixing.
Several people have suggested that the problem was that they did not
replace the idler puller and/or tensioner when they replaced the belt --
if indeed they did replace the belt.

Maybe they were including replacing the pulley and tensioner.

BTW, Autozone does not sell replacement tensioners for the 300M, so I
wasn't including that item in my cost of parts. And I hadn't thought
about the thermostat and hoses and other belts.

Perce

 

------- Snip ---------------------------------------------

When I bought both my Stratus and Cirrus, I steered clear of the 2.5,
based on the
info posted on this NG. The Stratus has an early 2.4, so I had to have
the head gasket
replaced using the extended warranty that I had.

The water pump started leaking, so it made sense to replace the timing
belt at the same time.

------- Snip------------------------------------------------

-KM

 

Pulley (also called tensioner, which confuses a lot of people)
maybe/probably; hydraulic tensioner almost certainly was not included in
their price - but ask them.

That is correct - the hydraulic tensioner is a dealer-only item.

 

Is the water pump driven by the chain?

 

I didn't deny that. Your assuming I was talking about a timing belt, but
since as everyone knows the T&C of that year uses a 3.8, I figured
I didn't need to spell out that I was talking about the fan belt. The
OP said he looked up the procedure in a service manual, so please
give him some credit for a modicum of intelligence.

My post was merely to illustrate that it's not unusual for a DIYer to
end up spending quite a lot of time on a part of a job that would take
a pro who has done the same job many times, not a lot of time to do.
In short, that sort of thing comes with the territory of being a DIYer,
and if you want to be one, you shouldn't be afraid of that.

However, just because it takes a DIYer 6 times longer than the pro to
do the same job, doesn't mean that he shouldn't do it. What matters
is that the job is done properly. If a DIYer can do it properly and take
8 hours to do it, that's just as good as a pro taking 2 hours and doing it
properly.

Most people don't make money 24x7. They make money 40 hours a
week and the rest of the hours in the week they don't make anything at
all. If a person can save $250 by spending 8 of those non-paid hours
doing the job themself, vs paying a pro for it, it's like they are getting
paid an extra $250 for that week.

I think it is high because the OP said the parts cost $200 and while you may
be made out of money, I personally think $550 is a lot of money.

The way I look at these things is on one hand I can remove $550 from
my wallet and just let it float off into the breeze. On the
other I can take my weekend where I'm not being paid diddly shit and
replace a belt. The fact a pro could do a job that I normally DON'T
do faster than me doesn't intimidate me and make my penis shrink down
to a pencil.


Ted

 

No. The 3.3 and 3.8L uses a simple serpentine belt driven water pump. (And
I agree that the water pump and belts are much more easily changed compared
to the 3.2 and 3.5L engines.

Bob

 

Uh, no, look above where I state "different belt."

Since I have 20 years of experience working on the 3.3/3.8, the only
person making assumptions is you.

Also, since I have 17 years of experience working on the 3.5, I'll spell
it out for you.
Quoted from Mitchell On Demand

Timing belt $155.00
Tensioner pulley $ 70.00
Tensioner $136.00
Water pump $109.00
Labor 3.2hr@$90 $288.00
Total $758.00

The OP said the parts cost $200 at -AutoZone-
(good grief)
Do you honestly think it's worth risking a $5000 engine job by saving
$270 on parts buying cheap crap from AutoZone?
So, while you may think $550 is a lot of money, you ignore the facts and
choose price over value.

The quote he got was dead nuts on. If he so chooses to go the cheap
parts route, he's been warned by Bill and myself. He'll be lucky to get
30,000 mile out of that rubber band AZ sells labeled as a timing belt.

As for your cheerleading and encouragement for him to do it himself...

Apparently you're not aware that the harmonic balancer needs to be
removed in order to R&R the timing belt, I have doubts that the OP
possesses the necessary puller ($200-$300) to remove it nor does he have
a reasonable means to remove (and more importantly, install) the bolt
that holds it on. And since the accessory drive belts are manually
adjusted, I doubt that he has the necessary proper belt tensioning gauge
($200) to properly adjust them.
Oh, the water pump bolts, they are 6 millimeter bolts, he'll need an
accurate inch-pound torque wrench for those. (more $$$.$$)

In spite of the fact that you have at some time in life, successfully
changed your own serpentine belt, the OP is best off to ignore your life
tales and realize that he's probably in over his head, bought a vehicle
that needs a $750 maintenance service at 105K miles and just suck it up.
'Cuz what you're selling is now where close to what he's needin'.

 

He said that the parts were $200 at Autozone. You're comparing apples
and oranges. By the time a local dealer bills you the OEM parts at 20
to 30% above list when you could have gotten the same OEM parts from an
online discount dealer for 30% below list, you're definitely at more
than $200 in parts and the labor part of that isn't $550, not by dealer
math anyway.

 

Exactly. And my further point was that you can get the OEM parts for
less than half those prices at an online discount dealer (trade shipping
for sales tax), and lose the warranty coverage that the local installing
dealer would give you on those parts.

Hmm - I see that that price list actually does include the hydraulic
tensioner. That's good.

Actually I bought the right kind of puller and crank stopper in a kit
off ebay for, IIRC, $65 - worked great and I didn't have to pull the
radiator. Plus many auto parts store have them as free loaners or rentals.

 

If you can find a shop that will install customer supplied parts, or
will do it and not raise their labor rate to compensate for the lost
revenue on the parts. (some do)

I have no way of knowing if the hydraulic tensioner was included in the
OPs estimate, but for purposes of comparison.
Anyway, that is how I would/have done the job. Even on my own 3.2

Works if you have enough time in advance to procure a deal off of e-bay,
if you don't get ripped off, if the tool isn't broken/pieces missing, if
the tool isn't out on loan.

 

That would not surprise me. I had already thought of that.

The "less than $200" was for belt, tensioner pulley and water pump.
AutoZone doesn't sell the hydraulic tensioner, and I did not know that
it is advisable to replace it as well; the Service Manual doesn't
suggest that it should be replaced at the same time -- or the pulley and
the water pump, come to that, so I don't know whether the (now ex-)
dealer's quote included the pulley and tensioner. I did specifically ask
for the water pump to be replaced at the same time.

From what I have read on the 300M forum to which Bill Putney referred
me, it appears that replacing the thermostat and radiator hoses at the
same time is advisable.

That was one of the things that made me uneasy about tackling the job
myself.

I still have 10K miles to think about it. I'll get a quote from one of
the still-authorized Chrysler dealers too. People have said that it was
cheaper to pay for the gas to and from the one 20 miles away than to pay
the local one's higher prices.

Perce

 

I checked back with that (ex-) dealer and found that they were not
including replacing the pulley and hydraulic tensioner -- $70 (in stock)
and $150 (special order) respectively.

Perce