300C and Magnum cars -- First impressions from NAIAS (long)

Discussion in 'Chrysler 300' started by Geoff, Jan 10, 2004.

  1. Geoff

    Geoff Guest

    I was lucky to be able to attend NAIAS on Thursday night for the industry
    preview night. I attended a design review for the PT Convertible and
    Chrysler 300 series while I was there. I also had the opportunity to sit in
    both the 300C as well as the Magnum, plus take in the rest of the show with
    only a few hundred people around, rather than the usual 40,000.

    Ralph Gilles, design chief for the LX series, did the presentation on the
    300 series, using a 300C for demonstration purposes. For those of you
    who've seen the pictures of the car at the NY auto show, or in the
    magazines, let me tell you, it looks very good in person. He said it's
    actually 1" shorter in overall length than the current 300M, but I can tell
    you, you'd never know it unless somebody told you. The car presents a
    stocky, muscular appearance, but it's not short at all; the so-called 'H'
    line that runs along the top of the front fender stands quite tall compared
    to the current LH cars. The detail in the headlamps is very intricate, and
    Gilles said he was particularly proud of how they turned out. Apparently
    one of the guys on his team that did the work had been a jeweler in a
    previous life, and it shows.

    The grille is large, and is the love-it or hate-it part of the car's design.
    Personally, I love it, but I can see where it would be a turn-off for
    people. Gilles said they wanted to make a statement with the grille, and
    they chose its large, bold appearance to give the car character. Love it or
    hate it, it does that in spades. I'm reminded of the reaction I had back in
    '97 to the Sebring's grille; it seemed large and plasticky to me, and I
    thought, gee, that will never work out. But it grew on me, and I think that
    if you don't like it, give it some time and you might change your mind.

    There are four trim levels offered: a base, two mid-level versions, and the
    300C. The Hemi will be available only in the 300C which starts out at $32K
    and change. They made a big deal about the value for the price, by the way,
    I guess the Pacifica misadventure still smarts. Fully optioned with all the
    stereo equipment, navigation system, supplemental air bags, etc., it will
    easily approach $40K. The mid-grade versions get the 3.5L V6, and really
    the two are the same car with the more uplevel version getting all the
    electronic goodies. You can easily option either of the mid-grade versions
    into the price range of the 300C, if you add all the air bags, Sirius
    stereo, etc. The base car gets the 2.7L V6 and a cloth interior with
    hubcaps. I seriously doubt they'll sell too many of these equipped this
    way, but my understanding is that it will start in the $23-$25K range. With
    the 3.5L versions starting around $27K, I'd be hard pressed to see why you'd
    go for the 2.7L. I guess AWD will be available soon, but not at first.

    The interior is very nicely done. The Magnum and the 300 series share the
    same interior with only minor trim differences, and a slightly different
    'center stack' in the dash above the radio/HVAC controls so the 300 can have
    an analog clock like the 300M does. The electronics were disabled on the
    stand, so they had somebody crawl in through the back seat passthru to
    release the rear decklid. From 5 feet away, I'd say the trunk has room very
    similar to my Intrepid. The ignition switch is on the dash, and there's a
    control stalk mounted above the turn-signal stalk that controls lighting and
    cruise control, IIRC. The wiper control is on the turn signal stalk. It
    seems like a good choice to keep it there. There's the usual center console
    with storage cubby which integrates rear HVAC outlets, and a glovebox.
    Really, nothing revolutionary in the dashboard design, just a good execution
    of the standard concepts.

    Rear seat room is excellent, and the front seat is just as good. You really
    do 'slide into' the car, rather than dropping into it; the seats are a skosh
    higher than what you're used to in a passenger car. It isn't quite high
    enough to give you the same view of the road you have in a pickup or a
    minivan of course, but it felt like it will be considerably better than the
    view from the LH cars. The beltline of the car is very high, and the side
    windows are not very tall at all. I wasn't in traffic, of course, but I
    don't think that visiblity is going to be a big problem. The view out the
    front and rear is excellent, although I didn't think to check for blind
    spots. You can see the hood quite well, but it's unobtrusive.

    The LX car I like the best is the Magnum. A lot has been said about how
    disappointing it was that there won't be a Dodge sedan version, and I was of
    that same mind right up until last night. I realized once I got to crawl in
    and around it that this is an outstanding form factor for that vehicle, and
    I think that it's going to sell very well. For me, it's good enough to make
    me forget about wishing for a sedan.

    For one thing, purge any Country Squire associations you might have in your
    mind. The 'wagon' portion of the vehicle is much shorter than that -- think
    more like 'Malibu Maxx' than any of the old Coronet-based machines you might
    have in mind. The space in the rear is very useful -- I'd say it has
    roughly the same floor dimensions as the trunk in the 300 -- but it's much
    more accessible with the rear hatch. The rear hatch itself is quite
    substantial, with the topmost portion of it extending about 12 inches into
    the roof. There is a hide-away compartment under the floor, and also a
    windowshade-style screen that hides stuff inside from view through the
    windows. It's truly a sporty wagon, much more so than the Pacifica, IMO.

    The car overall looks *far* more powerful and imposing than any of the
    car-based SUVs. It has a tremendous stance, and a really menacing view from
    the front -- you'll react to seeing one of these approaching fast in your
    rear view mirror the same way you do today to seeing a Tahoe or a Ram. One
    of the things I like most about vehicles is when you have the option of
    having a fairly basic interior package coupled with the largest available
    engine. The RT version is just that. The car I sat in was candy-apple red
    and equipped with the Hemi, yet it had a cloth interior and a 'just enough
    gadgets' package -- CD player, tilt, cruise, interval wipers, power locks,
    seats and windows, and trunk release. I might also have had an overhead
    console with a Homelink transciever, but I'm not certain about that. Of
    course, you can get all the leather/sat nav/bluetooth goodies if you want
    those things. As far as I'm concerned, they're just extra weight.

    My only carps? Well, I had a few. Gilles made a point of saying how the
    chromed gear selector was supposed to be part of the car's ornamentation. I
    wasn't terribly impressed; I would've favored a leather-wrapped shifter like
    my current Intrepid has. The front overhangs on both of these cars are
    somewhat low; I expect that drivers will have to be careful around curbs and
    parking blocks. The wheels and tires are *huge*, and although it works well
    in the design (the Magnums look like super-sized Intrepid ES wheels), I
    would expect the tires are going to be costly to replace. With 340HP on
    tap, that might turn into a real concern. We didn't get to peek under the
    hood of a Hemi Magnum (they had removed the release cable), but we were
    allowed a quick peek under the hood of a 300C. From a distance, I couldn't
    tell you about serviceability, but suffice it to say that the V6s looked a
    little cramped. (If it's anything like the Durango HEMI, it's going to be
    an exercise in patience to get to the rear sparkplugs, but not nearly as bad
    as the current minivans.) The Hemi has a large decorative engine cover with
    a HEMI logo on it in large block letters that looks identical to the one on
    the front fender of a '71 Roadrunner. One thing I couldn't do was adjust
    the power seats in any of the cars I sat in; they had the batteries
    disconnected. Somehow the foreign makes managed to arrange things so the
    dashboards were lit up and the stereos playing, so I don't understand why
    DCX couldn't do the same. Still, I'm just under 6', and with the seats all
    the way back as they appeared to be in the Magnum, I had a hard time
    reaching the pedals, and there was still room for me to sit behind the
    driver's seat without being cramped, so they've packaged the interior very

    Later that evening, I happened across Mr. Gilles while looking over the VW
    Phaeton in the downstairs exhibit. I asked him what he thought of a $60K
    VW, and he replied that he thought it was fabulous, which I guess it was.
    He said he'd love to have the chance to work on something like that, and I
    guess what designer wouldn't like to have a $60,000 price point to work
    with? I told him I liked his cars, and had gotten over being upset about
    there not being a Dodge sedan, but I still wondered if they might do one in
    the future. He kind of smiled, and said, well, I can't say, but put it this
    way, if you had all the stuff you needed to do it, what would you do?

    About 15 minutes later, I saw him snap a photo of a customizer's two-door PT
    hardtop in the downstairs display area. Given that the PT 'vert is a
    two-door body, it made me wonder...

    So, how was getting to see the auto show with only a few hundred people,
    plus getting to meet the design chief on the eve of the LX car's
    introduction (and also resist the urge to upbraid Automobile Magazine's Jean
    Jennings for their foreign bias)? It was a banner night!

    Geoff, Jan 10, 2004
  2. Geoff

    MoPar Man Guest

    Did you ask him how many designers left chrysler since the Daimler
    takeover? Or about general design team morale? Or about
    Chrysler-Daimler design politics?

    How close are they in meeting the targets for Merc parts inclusion?

    Did you ask him if it was enjoyable to be given an SUV platform and
    make it look like a sedan?
    MoPar Man, Jan 10, 2004
  3. Geoff

    Geoff Guest

    Yeah, sure. Take the opportunity to beat up on the guy for something he had
    nothing to do with and no say in. That's reasonable behavior for a mature

    He was a nice guy, and very gracious to even speak to someone he didn't know
    and who didn't have press credentials. Funny, it didn't occur to me to
    attack him.

    Don't get me wrong, I think the merger stinks. A court of law will decide
    whether or not it was a fraud. I'm waiting anxiously to find out what it
    decides. No matter what the decision, though, I'm going to accept it.
    Why would I? It's a great-looking *car*! Besides that, where are you
    getting the idea it's an SUV platform, anyway? It's no more an SUV platform
    than a '71 Charger was. Or a '69 Newport. Sure there's going to be AWD
    variants. Does that mean that every Subaru is an SUV? Does that make the
    Audi Quattro vehicles SUVs? I think not.

    Oh, maybe you're referring to the Hemi driveline that's also used in the
    trucks. The old Hemi saw use in a variety of industrial applications. Are
    you saying it was somehow less of a musclecar engine because of it?

    Perhaps you're talking about the fact that the LX vehicles are RWD? Need I
    remind you that the LHs were designed to be capable of this? Was the
    Prowler a truck?

    Being bitter and angry about the merger/takeover only works for so long,
    bud. If you don't like Chrysler and Dodge products anymore, that's your
    right. Maybe you should change your handle to 'Old Moparman' or 'Former

    Geoff, Jan 10, 2004
  4. Geoff

    MoPar Man Guest

    Those are tame questions. How or why would you interpret them as
    "beating up on the guy"?
    Again, please point out exactly how those questions could be
    interpreted as an attack on him personally.
    You're wrong. As I posted hear a week or two ago, Chrysler is trying
    to buy it's way out of this law suit by paying shareholders $300
    million (or effectively $.37 per pre-merger Chrysler share). The
    offer was mailed to Chrysler shareholders a few weeks ago.
    What choice do you have? How does it matter to you anyways? Is your
    last name Kerkorian?

    Does that mean your dislike of the "merger" will turn to happiness and
    approval if the courts throw out Kerkorian's suit?
    The year-2000 300-hemi concept was a *BETTER* looking *CAR*.
    Is the Pacifica a car or an SUV? Is the Magnum a car or an SUV? Is
    the current 300M a car or an SUV? Was the year-2000 300-hemi concept
    a car or an SUV?
    The LH platform was designed for RWD. Why couldn't they have built
    the new 300 around that platform, and throw in the Hemi?

    Is it a good thing that Chrysler has finally introduced a RWD V-8 in a
    passenger car? YES. Is this *really* a sedan or is it more like a
    cross-over SUV with a sedan skin? YES. Does it have taller seating,
    a higher belt-line, more angular and larger (boxy) profile, more
    fitting for a cross-over SUV? YES. Have the auto journalists said
    the same thing? YES. Is it a good thing for North American buyers
    that this 300C will have quite a bit of expensive Mercedes parts in
    it? NO.
    So why didn't chrysler make the RWD switch (with a V8) with the LH
    platform and get a few more years out of that platform? Why did they
    spend hundreds of millions to come up with the SUV-ish LX platform?
    The take-over of Chrysler by Daimler by itself is not the point. The
    bitterness among many die-hard Chrysler enthusiasts is really what
    Daimler had planed for Chrysler since day 1. Daimer really has axed
    any attempts by Chrysler to continue to develop any true muscle cars
    and sports-luxury sedans so that Chrysler doesn't end up building
    anything to compete with Mercedes. Yes, some will say that's good
    business sense. I say not, because those that want a true
    sports-luxury sedan will not necessarily buy Mercedes - they have lots
    of choices (less expensive and better quality). In the mean time we
    have Chrysler sedans that are more SUV-ish or truck-ish in their
    configuration and appearance.

    3 years ago many MoPar fans were nuts about the Hemi-300 and Dodge
    Charger concepts. What we have now is nothing like those concepts.
    That makes a lot of people bitter.

    The Mercedes ME-12 concept is nothing but pure noise designed to give
    Chrysler some hype at auto shows this year because of Chrysler's
    wasteland of concepts and production vehicles on display (unlike GM
    and Ford).
    MoPar Man, Jan 10, 2004
  5. Geoff:

    Thanks for the review - it must have been awesome to be at the show without
    all of the crowds.

    I've had a chance to see both the 300C and the Magnum at a couple of DCX
    Dealer Events - I love the 300C and hate the Magnum.

    I'm pleased to read that you like the Magnum - hopefully I will be wrong and
    there will be a market for that car. Based on age, income and education, I
    am right in the middle of where DCX wants to be with that car and I hate
    it - I would never drive a Station Wagon.

    In my opinion, they should have built the 4-Door Charger concept instead -
    hopefully that will be the sedan model that Mr. Gilles hinted at.

    Thanks again for the review - it should be an interesting year for DCX.

    Scott B. Hogle, Jan 10, 2004
  6. Geoff

    RPhillips47 Guest

    , in response to MoPar Man:
    I think "Grumpy Old MoPar Man" would fit better. His continual grudge against
    Chrysler because they are no longer Mopar, and the inability to buy his
    "what-used-to-be" cars because technology has improved, causes him to argue
    with anyone who likes the new Chrysler vehicles. Yeah, I am far from happy
    about the rape of Chrysler by Daimler, but I will not allow it to give me a
    "hardon-against-the-world" attitude it seems to have given him.
    RPhillips47, Jan 10, 2004
  7. Geoff

    MoPar Man Guest

    We all know the recent history of Chrysler. Some of you think the
    merger was necessary for Chrysler's financial survival. Some of you
    think Chrysler's vehicle design program is as independant now as it
    was before the merger. Others believe the merger wasn't necessary,
    and that Chrysler's vehicle design program is controlled by Daimler to
    the advantage of Mercedes. I happen to believe this.

    I believe Chrysler could be offering a different mix of vehicles with
    better customer appeal if it was allowed to. If Chrysler hears this
    often enough, perhaps it will lead to a change. This is a public
    forum that Chrysler may very well observe. If you think Chrysler has
    taken a design turn for the worse, but think it's not something to
    dwell upon, then you are not doing the Chrysler heritage any help.

    Yes, I can choose not to buy my next vehicle from Chrysler. But I can
    continue, at every turn, to tell Chrysler (perhaps indirectly) why I
    haven't, or won't, give them my business, or what I think is wrong
    with their vehicles. Others who love the new vehicles will, quite
    rightly, say so.

    Plymouth is gone. The Chrysler/Dodge car line is shrinking. The LX
    body has emerged as a platform for both sedan's and psuedo-SUV-ish
    vehicles. This does not enable Chrysler to build my idea of a 4 or 5
    passenger sports/luxury sedan or (or even 4 passenger 2-door sedan)
    that would have been a natural progression from the lines of the
    current 300M (ie low, sleek, curved, cab-forward). Why this couldn't
    have been done, with the LX platform given to Dodge for it's sedan's
    and wagons, is a valid question.
    MoPar Man, Jan 10, 2004
  8. Geoff

    mic canic Guest

    i heard 27k was the price for the 300c and it better be lower than that because
    the new mustage is going to be the rage at 17k esp with 350 ponies
    mic canic, Jan 10, 2004
  9. Geoff

    Sam Man Guest

    300C with Hemi starts at MSRP of $32999. No, it's not in competition with
    the Mustang.
    Sam Man, Jan 11, 2004
  10. I can tell you that. What has happened is Damlier has looked at the North
    market and seen that there's 3 kinds of vehicles that sell. The first are
    the $30K SUV's
    The second are the $18-20K sedans. The last are the trucks.

    Damlier cannot figure out why the $30K vehicles are selling nor can they
    figure out
    why the trucks are selling. They live in Europe which does not have the
    room or space
    for such vehicles, and cannot grasp the mindset. They understand why the
    $18-20K cars are selling, but they want out of that market, the margins are
    too thin
    for their liking.

    They have the truck and jeep market covered well enough to make money, they
    want to go
    after the $30K SUV market. But because they are Europeans, they just cannot
    wrap their minds around the idea of going whole-hog and producing a behemoth
    like the Ford Expedition. So instead they are producing these watered-down
    things that probably cost the same amount to produce as a typical $18-$20K
    and hoping the American public is dumb enough to fall for it.

    You forget what Mercedes is all about. Mercedes is about selling cars that
    have snob
    appeal but are cheap to manufacture, and thus making giant profit margins.
    That made
    a lot of money for Damlier and they are trying to turn Chrysler into the
    same kind of

    Ted Mittelstaedt, Jan 11, 2004
  11. Geoff

    mic canic Guest

    and the germs will be wondering why sales isn't all that great just like the
    my sister inlaw who's husband is a diehard gm owner and doesn't allow her to
    drive anything else states to me the husband can kiss her ass shes buying a 2005
    stang thats one badass car and me being a cuda and newport owner just may get
    one too esp. since hp will be more from ford
    mic canic, Jan 11, 2004
  12. Geoff

    MoPar Man Guest

    Ok, here's what's happening.

    First, look here:
    (reproduced in full below)

    Price range of the new 300 line is from $23.6k to $33k.

    What we have here is the Mercedes 300 series made by Chrysler. From
    an entry level model to a near luxury model this is the
    "Mercedes-ification" of Chrysler car models that I spoke about
    earlier. Just like Mercedes, we have the same car with different
    engines, brake and drive-train options, upgraded interiors and
    electronics. This particularly European (or German) trait to offer
    cars like this means the end of the characteristic bold individuality
    in Chrysler's car styling that was really one of Chrysler's

    Perhaps the Germans haven't fully realized that Americans (and CDN's)
    expect visually distinct models to differentiate the price points
    within a car line. Or perhaps Daimler doesn't care and is just
    doggedly going ahead and forcing Chrysler down this path. In any
    case, the market will decide if this strategy will be successful.

    I will say that getting a RWD V8 for $33k is an absolute steal, when
    you consider that the 300M started at $29.5k in '98 or '99 and the
    current 300 Special is what- more than $34k?

    What will this do to the sales of other cars, like Ford's LS with the
    V8 option? Doesn't that car push $40k ?

    But a V8 300 for $33k means something's got to give, and if the
    interior quality and road noise is comparable to, or better than, the
    current 300M then that will be impressive. But the profit margin on
    something like that must be pretty thin.

    I think Daimler was traumatized by the early poor sales of the
    Pacifica and this might esplain the low price of the LX-300 line. But
    consumers will still expect rebates and Chrysler must show extreme
    discipline to not offer them, otherwise it's a slippery slope down to
    where they don't want to be.

    ----- Begin copy of above link ----

    Press Release Source: Chrysler Group

    All-New 2005 Chrysler 300 Starts Below $24,000
    Monday January 5, 2:34 pm ET
    Lineup includes 5.7-liter HEMI(R) V-8 with Multi Displacement System

    DETROIT, Jan. 5 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Chrysler Group today
    announced U.S. pricing for its all-new 2005 Chrysler 300. With
    rear-wheel drive, an available 5.7-liter HEMI® V-8 engine and
    best-in-class interior space, Chrysler 300 redefines the classic
    American car. The base Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price (MSRP)
    for the new Chrysler 300 is $23,595, which includes destination. The
    new 2005 Chrysler 300 will begin to arrive in dealerships in the

    "With the all-new 2005 Chrysler 300, the premium is in the product,
    not the price," said Jeff Bell, Vice President, Chrysler/Jeep
    Marketing, Chrysler Group. "The all-new Chrysler 300 is a $1,130
    better value than the exiting 2004 Chrysler Concorde LX."

    Chrysler 300

    The Chrysler 300 is a well-equipped, elegantly styled vehicle
    consumers will be proud to own. At just $23,595 including destination,
    the 2005 Chrysler 300 features the fuel efficient 190 horsepower
    2.7-liter V-6 engine, with a four-speed automatic transmission. All
    Chrysler 300 models include an 17-inch wheels, eight-way power
    driver's seat, manual tilt/telescoping steering column, a premium
    cloth interior and body color mirrors, door handles and moldings. Also
    available are self-sealing tires, power adjustable pedals, four-wheel
    disc antilock brakes, all-speed traction control, electronic stability
    control, emergency brake assist and the first Original Equipment
    Manufacturer application of Boston Acoustic Premium Sound System.

    Chrysler 300 Touring

    The Chrysler 300 Touring is the second model in the 300 line-up adding
    luxury content to its stylish package. This package includes the high
    output 250 horsepower 3.5-liter V-6 engine, 17-inch aluminum wheels,
    fog lamps, four- wheel disc antilock brakes, all-speed traction
    control, electronic stability control, emergency brake assist, chrome
    accents inside and out, and leather seating for $27,395 including

    Chrysler 300 Limited

    The Chrysler 300 Limited adds premium content to the Touring Edition
    that is both elegant and affordable. For $29,890 including
    destination, the Chrysler 300 Limited features as standard 17-inch
    chrome clad aluminum wheels, electrochromic mirror, automatic
    headlamps, heated seats, power passenger seat, express-up and down
    front windows, dual-zone automatic temperature control and
    reconfigurable information center.

    Chrysler 300C

    The Chrysler 300C marks the return of the HEMI® engine, paying homage
    to the 300 letter-series lineage 50 years ago. At $32,995 including
    destination, the Chrysler 300C features the 340 horsepower HEMI V-8
    engine, mated to an electronically controlled five-speed automatic
    transmission with AutoStick®. All Chrysler 300C models feature dual
    exhaust tips, large performance disc brakes, unique chrome exterior
    appearance, patented tortoise shell interior highlights, power
    tilt/telescoping steering wheel, rain sensing wipers and Boston
    Acoustics six-speaker 288-watt digital amplifier sound system. Self
    sealing tires, adjustable pedals, seven-speaker 380 watt digital
    amplifier, GPS navigation radio and high-intensity headlamps with
    washers are also available.

    The 2005 Chrysler 300C will be the first modern production vehicle in
    North America to feature cylinder deactivation when it goes on sale in
    the spring of 2004. The Chrysler Group Multi Displacement System (MDS)
    seamlessly turns off the fuel consumption in four cylinders of the
    5.7-liter HEMI engine when V-8 power is not needed. This provides a
    world class combination of performance and fuel economy.

    All Chrysler 300 vehicles feature a short-long arm (SLA) front
    suspension system combined with a five-link independent rear
    suspension to provide excellent handling and a comfortable ride.

    "The bottom line is that the Chrysler 300 is stunningly affordable,"
    continued Bell. "Chrysler 300 will attract domestic and import,
    mid-size and full-size vehicle shoppers, who might not have considered
    any Chrysler premium full size sedan before."

    All Chrysler 300 vehicles come with the Chrysler Premium Care Plan
    first introduced on the 2004 Chrysler Crossfire and Pacifica. This
    plan entitles owners to a no-charge loaner vehicle any time scheduled
    maintenance or non- body shop repair is required during the initial
    three-year/36,000 mile warranty period. This, combined with 24-hour
    towing assistance, ensures that a Chrysler customer will not be left

    The Premium Care Plan includes:
    * 7 year/ 70,000 mile Powertrain Limited Warranty
    * 3 year/ 36,000 mile Basic Limited Warranty
    * Complimentary loaner vehicle for scheduled dealer visits
    * 24/7 towing assistance

    The all-new Chrysler 300 is built at the Company's Brampton, Ont.
    (Canada) manufacturing plant along with the all-new Dodge Magnum.

    MSRP Destination
    Chrysler 300 $22,970 $625
    Chrysler 300 Touring $26,770 $625
    Chrysler 300 Limited $29,265 $625
    Chrysler 300C $32,370 $625
    MoPar Man, Jan 11, 2004
  13. Geoff

    Sam Man Guest

    The Pacifica is outselling everything in it's class... What the hell are
    you talking about?

    If you want a Mustang get one. It'll help the economy. Just stop bashing
    Chrysler please....
    Sam Man, Jan 11, 2004
  14. Would you like to expand on that?


    For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling

    but are cheap to manufacture, and thus making giant profit margins.
    Dori A Schmetterling, Jan 12, 2004
  15. Geoff

    Geoff Guest

    Uh, no. The GT's V8 will produce 300HP, not 350, and will start at $25K.

    LX cars are not competition for the Mustang, except maybe for you.

    Geoff, Jan 12, 2004
  16. Geoff

    MoPar Man Guest

    MoPar Man, Jan 13, 2004
  17. Geoff

    Geoff Guest

    Geoff, Jan 13, 2004
  18. Geoff

    Martin Boer Guest

    You forget one minor detail in your story:

    Chrysler wasn't making any money and no matter how
    good or nice their ideas were, they were dead wrong.
    I don't like this any more then you do, but in a market
    economy sales matters instead of design.

    Martin Boer, Jan 13, 2004
  19. Geoff

    mic canic Guest

    really? seen billy boy on local detroit tv bragging about the new shelby being 17k
    mic canic, Jan 15, 2004
  20. I'll leave it to you to talk to any of Damlier parts vendors who will inform
    you of how Damlier's buying power is used to extract every last bit of blood
    from them. Cheap parts make for cheap manufacturing costs make for
    lots of money for Damlier. This is why mergers work - they allow the
    combined company to make money by forcing the suppliers to cut their

    Ted Mittelstaedt, Jan 15, 2004
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