2001 PT Cruiser, Phenolic Brake Pistons?

I just brought my 2001 PT Cruiser LE in for brake pads. Upon
inspection, I was told that the caliper pistons would need to be
rebuilt. I was told that due to the excessive heat from the
non-asbestos pads, the phenolic plastic pistons had slightly deformed
and therefore did not fully retract when the brakes were released.
They said this was a common problem with "today's brake systems." The
cost for rebuilding the pistons, turning the rotors, replacing all
pads, and flushing and refilling brake fluid was $600. Is this
legitimate, or am I being bent over?

Gary S

 

Although the repair itself sounds legitimate, US$600 is not. Run away,
my friend, run away.

--Geoff

 

Am I being bent over?

Yes. Calipers stick because the pins and inner bushings are not taken apart
and cleaned and relubed with a good synthetic lube. Rebuilt calipers are
about $25.00. It is all an easy do it yourself job. It takes about one hour.
You figure it out. I have never heard of the defect your dealer describes,
and besides, no one rebuilds these today since rebuilds are so cheap.

Richard.

 

Well...no. The *calipers* might need rebuilding, but one does not rebuild
pistons.

Well...no. There is no such thing as "excessive heat from non-asbestos
pads".

That is possible, but so are a great many other problems that could cause
your disc brake pistons not to retract fully.

Pffft. Anytime someone starts mouthing off about special service
procedures required by "today's" anything, my BS detector goes off.

Where, exactly, did you bring your car in for brake pads? And why?

 

Did they say the "calipers would have to be rebuilt" or did they say
you needed "new calipers" ?

The only moving part inside a caliper is the piston, and the only
other part that is normally replaced with the piston is a seal. FYI,
the cost for a piston and seal for the rear caliper of a 2000 300M is
under $20. The cost for a new caliper is well over $100.

Were these the original pads the car came with from the factory? (if
yes, then ask them why would Chrysler put the wrong pads on the car in
the first place). If not, were they put on at the dealer during a
previous brake job? In either of those 2 cases, if they admit that
the car had the *wrong* brake pads, then ask them why you should have
to foot the bill for the dammage caused by the *wrong* pads that were
put on the car.

By the way, are there *any* pads with asbestos in them that are either
(a) OEM or (b) available for passenger car use (ie not racing) ???

(aren't ALL passenger car pads now fully non-asbestos at this
point???)

Yes, the pistons are (probably) phenolic (resembing "bakelite"). If
they are deformed, then they should be causing a leak (maybe not with
the old pads, but only when new pads are put on and the pistons are
forced deeper into the cylinder).

The premise of their entire explanation rests on their assertion that
the old brake pads are non-asbestos. I'm pretty sure that
non-asbestos pads are the defacto standard type in common use and that
brake calipers and pistons are designed for this type of pad (which is
metallic or semi-metallic (organic?)).

Ask them if (as part of their service) they would put on
asbestos-containing brake pads to correct this "problem". IF they say
yes, ask to see the box the pads come in.

How many sets of pads has this vehicle had so far in it's life?
Normally I would expect the calipers to last at least 4 brake jobs (or
the life of the vehicle) without needing piston-related service.

AND

If you are not experiencing any brake-pulsing or steering-wheel
shaking during braking, then there is NO REASON to turn the rotors.

It's quite common for garages to want to turn your rotors along with
replacing the pads (whether the rotors need turning or not). To want
to do work on the calipers themselves (like replace ALL 4 PISTONS) is
a new low. The half-ass reason that the pads are non-asbestos is just
that - a half-ass reason.

If you are not leaking brake fluid RIGHT NOW, then your pistons are
fine.

Go to another brake shop.

PS: What sort of factory warrany does an 01 PT have with respect to
covering premature brake-caliper wear or dammage?

 

Sounds like BS to me, today's pads and rotors are softer, since asbestos
can't be used anymore, and to lower the amount of noise from the brakes, so
I doubt "excessive heat" is a problem.

I would get a second opinion, and I would check out the cost of having
rebuilt calipers put in, rather than having those rebuilt, if the calipers
do need to be fixed/replaced. Check ou the cost of new rotors as well,
instead of having the old ones turned. For what you are being charged for
shaving off part of your rotors, new ones might be cost-effective.

If you are at a dealer, I would RUN, not walk, to the nearest reputable
brake shop, even if all the work you describe has to be done, you will save
big bucks. No need for a dealer to do this work, brakes are very rarely
covered by warranty.

Let us know how it works out, good luck!
SRG

 

The shop I went to was "Just Brakes," a supposedly reputable chain
here in the Atlanta area.

More specifics:

My PT Cruiser has 58,000 miles on it. I've had the front brakes
replaced once previously, at the Chrysler dealer. Rear were original
- or "virgin," as he called them. My brakes seemed to work fine, I
only brought it in to have pads installed because the rear pads looked
low, and I wanted to get them replaced before I did start to have
problems. Braking was smooth, did not pull, pulse, or shake, and
there were no leaks.

He showed me the pads had uneven wear, specifically the outside pad
was about half the thickness of the inside pad. He told me the cause
of that was the piston problem...

Another question, if the pistons were not retracting fully, wouldn't
that mean that the pads were in constant contact with the rotors? And
if that were the case, wouldn't I see excessive brake dust? (And
would the rear pads have lasted 58,000 miles?)

I think I have been taken...

 

He saw you coming...bringing a vehicle in for work that wasn't indicated
by any symptoms. Probably figured you for someone who wants to do the
right thing and avoid problems, and then took advantage of that.

Wear between inboard and outboard pads will not necessarily be "even".
In some brake systems, the wear is at significantly different rates. As
long as the pads are both at least the minimum thickness, it's not a
problem.

Pads are *supposed* to be in constant contact with the rotors. They
don't retract, per se, they just 'coast' along the surface of the rotor
all the time with little or no clamping force applied by the caliper
when you're not braking.

Rear pads on a FWD vehicle have been known to last much longer than 58K
miles. Mine on my Intrepid went almost 90K miles.

Yep. As it turns out, you have found a shop that isn't as reputable as
you were led to believe.

--Geoff

 

Unfortunately, as you have found out, Just Brakes is not a reputable
chain. They appear on the news as much as the weather it seems. They
attract customers with their four wheel $99 special and then sell them
stuff they don't need.

Sorry to hear that they got you too.

Steve B.

 

See info below about pad wear
Bill

IF THE PISTONS WERE STICKING THE INNER PAD WOULD SHOW MORE WEAR THAN THE
OUTER PAD. I'll stop yelling now. If the caliper sticks on the guides then
there will be excessive wear on the outer pad as compared to the inner pad.
I'll start yelling again... RUN, MAN, RUN to somehwere other than just
brakes. Sounds like that shop is hungry.

 

Rear brake pads tend to wear at 1/2 to 1/3 the rate of the fronts.
Even though they are smaller. 58k miles on 2 sets of front pads
sounds like normal wear.

It's normal for a difference in the wear between the inside and
outside pads.

I've never seen pads that are *fully* retracted from the rotors. The
reason for this is that if you're working on a parked car, the last
thing you do before you put the car in park is to take your foot off
the brake. When you jack the car up and try to turn the wheel, there
will be friction between the rotor and pad. Assuming the wheel isin't
locked in park, you should easily be able to rotate the wheel if the
tire is still on it. If the tire is off, and you've got a good grip
on the lug posts, you should be able to turn the hubs.

Now drum brakes are a different story.

The formation of brake dust will depend on the type of pads. OEM pads
(metallic and semi-organic) are relatively hard and don't dust very
much. They are also hard on rotors if driven agressively (and are
more prone to gassing or brake fade in situations like that). The
pads that cause more dust tend to be used for performance driving
(auto-cross).

Assuming you got 60k miles from 2 sets of front pads and 60k miles on
1 set of rear pads - AND YOU ARE NOT EXPERIENCING SHAKING OR PULSING
WHILE BRAKING (and a bad smell isin't coming from your wheels because
your brakes aren't leaking) then there is nothing wrong with your
calipers (or rotors).

 

This was true in older dual- or quad-piston, fixed-caliper setups. It is
no longer necessarily true in single-piston, sliding-caliper setups.

 

Well...no. They're not "supposedly reputable", they just advertise
themselves widely, is all. You apparently did exactly what all advertisers
hope you will do: make the spurious translation from "advertised" to
"reputable".

Go find a good independent general mechanic.

 

Last winter at 40,000 miles I heard a rear noise. One of the prongs from an
inner pad that fits in the piston broke off from rust. A dealer charged me
about $75.00 to change the pads with an OEM set for the rear.

Two weeks ago, at 52,000 miles, to cure a pulse, I ordered Brembo Rotors and
ceramic pads from Tire Rack for the front. I put them on in about an hour
myself. I lubed the pins with synthetic lube. The expensive parts, with
shipping was under $250.00. The pulse is gone and I am happy.

Richard.