1999 grand caravan brake rotors

Discussion in 'General Motoring' started by robert, Aug 22, 2003.

  1. robert

    robert Guest

    have to replace by front rotors. any comments on getting the cheaper
    ones from autozone/napa or paying the higher price for the
    bendix/raybestos or napa to of the line ones. which are the ones you
    most use. also any comments on front pads as far as the ones you like
    and have the best stopping power with. thanks
     
    robert, Aug 22, 2003
    #1
  2. robert

    Rick Guest

    I found the Raybestos ceramic pads glazed the rotors, causing a pulsating
    stop. The people that turned the rotors indicated that they were not warped.
    This happened after 5k miles.
     
    Rick, Aug 22, 2003
    #2
  3. robert

    jdoe Guest

    Never saw a problem with them at all. But then again I've never had the
    brake problems I see so many people complaining about here. Maybe I'm less
    abusive but....than again my wife drives one of the vans and I can't say
    that for her she's hard on stuff ;-) The biggest thing I've noted is making
    sure the hub to rotor surfaces and the hub to wheel surfaces are cleaned of
    rust/corrosion and to torque the wheels properly.
    Larry
     
    jdoe, Aug 22, 2003
    #3
  4. robert

    robert Guest

    interesting. did you change the pads or live with it...what did the
    people that turned the rotors say about these pads....good or bad...
    thanks for your help....
     
    robert, Aug 22, 2003
    #4
  5. robert

    Bill Putney Guest

    Below is a repeat of part of a recent post of mine (in the "Advice on
    1999 Jeep Cherokee vs. 2001 Jeep Cherokee" thread) that may be a general
    solution for vehicles with marginal (always warping) brakes, as many of
    them are these days:
    For extra insurance against warping, especially on a problem vehicle,
    you can have a new set of rotors cryogenically treated - will cost $75
    plus shipping for treatment of a pair of rotors (based on: $1.50/pound
    with min. job charge of $75 - a typical rotor would weigh in the
    neighborhood of 15 to 21 pounds - rears are almost certainly not the
    problem - only necessary to do the fronts). I recommend
    www.300below.com. I had new rotors (fronts only) done on my '99
    Concorde (LH cars are also plaqued by rotor warping) several months ago,
    and the brakes are as smooth today as when I first put them on - and I
    just spent a week vacation in the mountains of West Virginia with
    several 3-mile 8 to 10% downhill grades braking suddenly from 55 mph to
    15 mph for hairpin turns after periodic stabbing on the straightaways to
    control speed - I think I just proved (to myself anyway) that there is
    something to this cryo-treating. Side benefits: Rotor wear is decreased
    to 1/2 to 1/3 of non-treated rotors, pad wear decreased to 80% of
    normal; friction coefficient somewhere between unchanged to slight
    increase.

    (FWIW, I have Hawk HPS pads - very popular with the 300M and Intrepid
    crowd. My cryo-treated rotors are NAPA=Dana=United Brake=Raybestos.
    The rotor style is PHP - drop-in replacement for non-PHP but with better
    venting/cooling.)

    Bill Putney
    (to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
    address with "x")
     
    Bill Putney, Aug 23, 2003
    #5
  6. robert

    Bill Putney Guest

    NAPA top of the line = Raybestos (reboxed as their in-house United Brake
    brand) - recommended. I don't know if they make Hawk HPS pads for
    Caravans, but they are popular with LH car owners.

    Bill Putney
    (to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
    address with "x")
     
    Bill Putney, Aug 23, 2003
    #6
  7. Interesting as I saw an article some time ago about some testing done on
    cryo treated gun barrels that were supposed to suddenly gain magic
    powers also. A well designed set of experiments showed basically no
    difference before and after treatment. Do you know of any real studies
    on cryo treated rotors beyond your anecdote? No offense, but a sample
    size of one is pretty much as insignificant as you can get statistically
    speaking...


    Matt
     
    Matthew S. Whiting, Aug 23, 2003
    #7
  8. robert

    Bill Putney Guest

    I certainly understand your snotty attitude - err - I mean, your
    skepticism, Matt. 8^)

    Seriously - yes - I realize that my experience is purely anecdotal - a
    sample of one. There are some downloadable videos on the 300below.com
    site on the alleged science and applications of cryotreating, including
    that of gun barrels for competition.

    I can't remember if they name names or not as far as competition
    shooters, but they discuss that application as if it's common knowledge
    in the top echelons of competition shooting that cryo-treating works and
    improves scores in rapid-fire competition. Their explanation says that
    the very uniform grain structure resulting from the treatment and lack
    of residual internal stresses means close to zero distortion as the gun
    barrel heats up during rapid-fire competition and so a tight pattern is
    more closely maintained for a good shooter. If they give names and
    references, then that's where your answer lies - otherwise, I agree -
    it's suspect information.

    They also claim that it is used to greatly increase strength and fatigue
    resistance of hi-stress automotive racing parts (connecting rods,
    blocks, pistons, drivetrain components, etc.), and, again, you're given
    the distinct impression that it is a known real advantage in some racing
    circles (quotes from a customer that they get something like 4 or 5
    races out of a single engine before rebuild or self-destruction rather
    than the usual one or two races. Again, I don't recall if they name
    names or give verifiable references. I will say that the local speed
    shop thru which I ordered their service told me that, while they did not
    have racing customers who used treated rotors, they definitely have
    customers who swear by it for treating engine parts.

    I do remember that they link a magazine article (some trade magazine,
    IIRC - hopefully not an internal "publication") about a company that is
    saving a bunch of money on replacing a certain type of welding tip in a
    production environment by having the tips cyro-treated - something like
    ten times the life of the untreated tip - I believe they do give the
    name of that customer.

    To be honest, I do know of one other person on a 300M forum that had his
    rotors done, and his warped - **but** he had the rotors cross-drilled
    and slotted before the treatment (mine were treated right out of the
    box, no other mods), and a different company did the treatment, so I
    don't think it is an apples-to-apples comparison; plus his experience is
    no more nor no less anecdotal than my experience.

    What magazine was the article you read in?

    Bill Putney
    (to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
    address with "x")
     
    Bill Putney, Aug 23, 2003
    #8
  9. I can't remember and it has been some years ago that I read this,
    shortly after the cryo rage hit the shooting world. I suspect it was
    either Shooting Times or American Rifleman as they are the only two that
    I have received over a long period of time. I'm not able to find a
    reference though.

    This article may give the best reason of all ... psychology. If you
    think something helps, then that helps in and of itself.

    http://www.rifleshootermag.com/gunsmithing/RSgunsmith1/

    Like people who claim that synthetic oil gives them a 20% increase in
    gas mileage (typically based on checking one tank of gas!), or that
    Splitfire spark plugs give them 10% more horsepower, etc. The mind is a
    powerful device...

    Matt
     
    Matthew S. Whiting, Aug 23, 2003
    #9
  10. Yes, but the point is that many things can change the way a barrel
    shoots or the way that rotors warp or not. Simply removing and
    replacing the barrel for the cryo treatment could change the headspace,
    which could change the accuracy. Also, the seating of the action and
    barrel in the stock could change, etc. I'm not saying anyone is lying,
    just possibly making incorrect cause and effect attributions.

    For example, let's say the wheel lug nuts were grossly overtorqued and
    the rotors warped. The owner takes them off, has them cryo treated and
    then turned on a lathe. They are now reinstalled and this time the lug
    nuts are hand torqued to the proper value. The rotors don't warp again.
    It was the cryo, right? :) Maybe, maybe not, but I'll bet you a
    steak dinner that the owner credits the cryo in any event.



    I'm not saying it isn't helpful, I'm just saying I've not seen credible
    evidence. The above sounds like an Amsoil advertisement. :) After
    using Amsoil in my motorcycle and one car many years ago, I don't
    believe all of their claims either.

    Some things above just don't make logical sense. I can see treating the
    rotors potentially making the rotors last longer, but I don't see it
    making the pads last longer. Unless the short pad life was from rusted
    and pitted rotors and the cryo somehow prevents rust, which I doubt.
    Even if cryo serves an annealing function, which is what most claim from
    what I've read, that wouldn't increase pad life.

    If Amsoil as a good as it claimed back in the 70s, everyone would be
    using it now. Same for cryo. I use synthetic oil and have for 25
    years, but my cars don't get magically quieter, I've never seen a
    measurable fuel mileage improvement (and I keep a log book and calculate
    every tankful), etc. I use it for one reason only, it is less viscous
    at low temperatures and my cars crank better in the winter. This is a
    very noticeable effect. I believe it also gives better high-temp
    protection, but that isn't a major consideration in PA.



    Matt
     
    Matthew S. Whiting, Aug 24, 2003
    #10
  11. robert

    Bill Putney Guest

    Correct. They do have micrographs on their site showing 'before' and
    'after' grain structure. And you are also correct in that they are not
    exactly a disinterested independent third party presenting the "proof".
    Agreed - you would have to know the integrity (honesty, method of
    "proving", and objectivity so that, as has been pointed out, they don't
    fool themselves into believing their own false hopes - that pesky
    placebo effect) of the person (company) being quoted and that of the
    person (company) doing the quoting.
    Fair enough - I wasn't expecting it to prove anything - just some of the
    stuff seems convincing combined with my own experience (not that I would
    expect that to convince anyone else). I may dig a little deeper into
    some of the magazine articles though with the hopes of stumbling across
    something a little scientific and independent like what you point out
    would be needed.

    I sure am enjoying driving my car while I fool myself into thinking that
    the brakes don't pulsate any more - ignorance is bliss! (I know - still
    no proof - I'm just being an a**-hole) 8^)

    Bill Putney
    (to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
    address with "x")
     
    Bill Putney, Aug 24, 2003
    #11
  12. Actually, this is a very old wives tale and science says no such thing.
    I'm surprised someone who claims to be an engineer would propogate
    this old saw...
    That's good. I'll keep my eye on it. As I said before, I'm not saying
    it doesn't have merit. I've just not yet personally seen convincing
    evidence that it does (3rd party data, etc.) and the one reasonably
    controlled experiment I read with regard to gun barrels suggested that
    it did not have any measurable affect.

    If it is shown to work, I'll use it!


    Matt
     
    Matthew S. Whiting, Aug 24, 2003
    #12
  13. robert

    Bill Putney Guest

    I suspect that that was a true saying some years ago, and that over
    time, with computer analysis and simulation, eventually science did
    crack that nut (don't know for sure - just speculating). Even though it
    may be a little outdated, it illustrates a valid point, and I will keep
    using it. Certainly science is explaining the unkowns one by one, but
    there will always be plenty of things that it can't explain but that
    work in spite of man's ignorance.
    No problem. I just think it's peculiar that you see people complaiing
    about constant brake problems on Chysler and other forums, and so far, I
    know of only two poeple (including myself) within that sizeable but
    limited population that have tried cryo as a last resort. I'll bet
    neither you nor I put 1% of the products we use in our home or car to
    the scrutiny to which you are putting this when there is a real need for
    a solution when there appears to be none due to marginal design.

    Bill Putney
    (to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
    address with "x")
     
    Bill Putney, Aug 25, 2003
    #13
  14. robert

    Richard Guest

    I have a 96 Town and Country. A few months ago I went on the Tire Rack site
    and found that they sell those Brembo Rotors for about what you would pay at
    NAPA for their part. I combined these with ceramic pads and have no
    complaints.

    Richard.
     
    Richard, Aug 25, 2003
    #14
  15. But "science" never said this. Some scientist or engineer "may" have
    said it, but even that I doubt, but science never said it.


    Actually, I do for things that cost more than about $1.98. :) I have
    a 1996 Grand Voyager and the brake rotors on it were warped when I
    bought the van used with about 34K on it. I had them replaced at around
    60K when the pads wore out. The van now has 136K and the rotors are
    fine with no signficant warping. I can feel a very slight pulsing in
    the pedal when braking very lightly, but nothing even close to
    objectionable. So, for me getting my rotors cryo treated would be
    fixing a problem that doesn't, for me, exist. I don't consider nearly
    80K to be bad life for a brake rotor, and I fully expect these rotors to
    last the remaining life of the vehicle (I expect to put 200K on it).

    Personally, I believe the biggest cause by far of warped rotors is
    improperly torqued lug nuts. I rotate my own tires and torque my own
    lug nuts. I've never, ever had a set of rotors warp in the nearly 30
    years I've owned cars and trucks. The only warped rotors I've had have
    been on used cars I bought. And every one had the lug nuts on so tight
    I had to use a pipe on my 1/2" breaker bar to loosen them.

    I prefer to address what I consider to be the fundamental problem. But
    I certainly don't object to people cryo treating their parts. If it
    keeps a few more Americans employed, it is alright by me!

    And in PA, the rotors typically succumb to rust long before they warp! :-(



    Matt
     
    Matthew S. Whiting, Aug 25, 2003
    #15
  16. robert

    Bill Putney Guest

    300 Below charges $1.50/lb. with a minimum per 'job' of $75. My front
    rotors weighted about 18 pounds each, so I was a good bit under the 50
    pounds that would have maxed out the $75 minimum. It would have been
    more economical per pound or per rotor to have gotten rear rotors too to
    throw in with the same order - that would have put my total for the
    treatment around $90 to $100, but rears are not a problem (from wear or
    warpage) on most vehicles, certainly on my car (IOW the extra cost of
    the new rear rotors would have been a waste of money).

    The rotors themselves for my car from NAPA were $47 each.

    300 below will allow you to ship them your new rotors (they
    understandably will not treat used rotors because they already could
    have warpage and/or microcracks), or you tell them what rotors you want
    and they'll supply them and add that to the bill, which would save you
    the shipping cost one way (IIRC around $12 each way from/to the east
    coast).

    So my total out of pocket for two new treated front rotors was $47 x 2
    (rotors) + $75 = $169 (not including sales tax on the rotors). Shipping
    added $24 ($12 if I had let them procure the rotors). So about twice
    what the rotors alone cost.

    *IF* it solves the annoying warping problem and *IF* you get
    significantly longer pad and rotor wear life out of it, then it's well
    worth it. These days, people replace rotors almost like it was changing
    oil. 8^)

    Bill Putney
    (to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
    address with "x")
     
    Bill Putney, Aug 26, 2003
    #16

  17. The "science has proved that bees can't fly" urban myth originated in a 1934
    book by entomologist Antoine Magnan, who discussed a mathematical equation
    by Andre Sainte-Lague, an engineer. The equation proved that the maximum
    lift for an aircraft's wings could not be achieved at equivalent speeds of a
    bee. I.e., an airplane the size of a bee, moving as slowly as a bee, could
    not fly. Although this did not mean a bee can't fly (which after all does
    not have stationary wings like the posited teency aircraft), nevertheless
    the idea that Magnan's book said bees oughtn't be able to fly began to
    spread.

    It spread at first as a joke in European universities, at Sainte-Lague's &
    Magnan's expense. But later it became a "fact" among the gullible or the
    uneducated not smart enough to get the joke.

    Ted
     
    Ted Mittelstaedt, Aug 26, 2003
    #17
  18. robert

    Bob Shuman Guest

    Bill,

    Thanks. The total price seems to make this process uneconomical. As I
    indicated previously, I generally have experienced warpage/pulsing around
    20K miles. I usually live with this till about 25-30K miles which is about
    3-4 years old. When doing the discs, I replace the rotors with Raybestos or
    Napa US made and don't get any noticeable warpage till I do the brakes again
    at about 60K miles. I can usually resurface these at that time and get
    another 30 or more miles from them. In my case, even if this treatment
    worked very well, it just wouldn't make sense financial since the rotors are
    easy to replace when you have the calipers off to do the discs anyway.

    Bob
     
    Bob Shuman, Aug 26, 2003
    #18
  19. This "test" has flaws I could drive a truck through. First, as I
    mentioned earlier, unless they are treating the action and barrel as an
    assembled unit, the barrel has to be unscrewed from the action and
    re-installed. It is fairly well known that this operation can have a
    significant affect on accuracy. Second, most barrels tend to shoot
    worse when brand new, better as they "wear in" and then worse again as
    they wear out. Wouldn't be unusual at all for the second 500 rounds
    through a barrel to shoot better than the first 500 as the first 100 to
    200 are the break-in rounds and in all likelihood dramatically skew the
    group sizes of the first 500 rounds.

    Since there is not just one variable here, the cryo treatment, it is
    laughable to make the statement "there had been a
    tremendous increase in the accuracy of the barrel brought about by the
    deep freeze alone."

    Which raises an interesting question: why are only the barrels treated?
    I've never heard of an entire rifle being treated (barrel, action,
    trigger, etc.), but it seems to me that if the benefits of stress relief
    and better wear resistance are true, all of these items would benefit.
    Yet I've only read about barrels being treated. Any idea why? Or have
    you read about complete rifles being treated?

    I'm not a metallurgist, but it sounds logical.

    Sorry, but I can't place much credence in a link from the company
    peddling a product or service.


    Matt
     
    Matthew S. Whiting, Aug 26, 2003
    #19
  20. robert

    Bill Putney Guest

    You're welcome. Since you can figure on $30-$40 for resurfaceing a pair
    of rotors and then buy another set a little later, I'm not sure I agree
    that it is not economical in the long run - but that's just my opinion.
    I guess I'm looking for extra margin of safety against a single event or
    trip (like thru the mountains of West Virginia like I just took cutting
    short the life of a regular rotor - maybe right after getting the new
    pair). For me it just totally relieves pressure about using the brakes
    heavily if warranted for a long downhill or whatever (whether having
    just replaced them or 2 or 3 years down the road (literally). 8^)
    NAPA (non-off-shore version) = Raybestos reboxed as NAPA's in-house
    United Brake brand (and made in Canada - cast prominently into the
    rotor). 8^)
    I wouldn't call that a bad decision - it's a plan based on some logic.

    Bill Putney
    (to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
    address with "x")
     
    Bill Putney, Aug 26, 2003
    #20
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