1997 Chrysler Concorde 3.5 Sudden Stall

Discussion in 'Concorde' started by fredsmythson, Jul 11, 2007.

  1. fredsmythson

    fredsmythson Guest

    I just had a rebuilt 3.5 engine installed in my 1997 Chrysler
    Concorde. After only 200 miles the engine has some stalling problems.
    When I'm stopped at a traffic light sometimes the engine will suddenly
    stall. There is no warning that the engine is about to stall - just
    suddenly stops running. Also, during those 200 miles, at idle in
    drive, the engine would run slightly rough and there was a major
    rattle somewhere in the dashboard. Today, I had the same type of
    problem where the engine suddenly stalled. When I tried to restart,
    the engine turned slowly and started, but this time the engine was
    missing badly. I managed to get the car back home and I called the
    auto shop to send a tow truck. When the tow truck arrived, the car
    started right up and ran normally. The car is back at the auto shop,
    so I'm wondering what they will say next. I've already paid close to
    $3K for the engine replacement. Has anyone else had a sudden stalling
    problem with their Chrysler? Thanks...
     
    fredsmythson, Jul 11, 2007
    #1
  2. fredsmythson

    who Guest

    Right off the top I suspect a rich mixture or the timing off.
    Was there black smoke coming out the exhaust when it was missing badly?
     
    who, Jul 11, 2007
    #2
  3. fredsmythson

    damnnickname Guest

    it possible that the crank sensor has not been properly shimed or it is
    bad. see if there is a fault code stored.

    Glenn Beasley
    Chrysler Tech
     
    damnnickname, Jul 11, 2007
    #3
  4. fredsmythson

    Steve Guest


    First off, pull the error codes by cycling the ignition switch 3 times
    and counting blinks of the "check engine" light (you can find the
    procedure at allpar.com- EVERY owner should know how to do this and it
    should be the FIRST step in diagnosing any problem.)

    I suspect you'll find an error relating to either the cam position
    sensor or the crank position sensor. FWIW- sometimes the crank position
    sensor alone won't trip a code on first-gen 3.5L engine management
    systems- the computer just thinks the engine stopped and doesn't realize
    that it still should be running.
     
    Steve, Jul 16, 2007
    #4
  5. fredsmythson

    Joe Guest

    This may not help you, but I have the exact same problem. The symptoms are
    identical. In my case, the problem is caused by a bad connection at the
    coil. I can wiggle the wires where they plug into the coil and I can make
    it miss or stop missing. That's probably not your problem, but the symptoms
    are right.
     
    Joe, Jul 18, 2007
    #5
  6. fredsmythson

    philthy Guest

    the egr gasketrs and tubes can creat a vac leak that will cause the car to stall

    they are oin the bac of the cylinder heads and can be a pain for someone doing a
    engine swap rushing thru it
     
    philthy, Jul 19, 2007
    #6
  7. fredsmythson

    maxpower Guest

    Not true!! it isn't a carbureted engine, its fuel injected. You could take
    the throttle body off that vehicle and it will run.

    Glenn
     
    maxpower, Jul 19, 2007
    #7
  8. go with the error codes....

    my '96 did the same thing last year.....error code was for EGR
    malfunction.......shop said the EGR was OK.........car would run great
    99% of the time.....rough every now and then....and stall without
    warning at a stop light.

    finally got fed up and took the EGR off myself: the plastic connector
    nipples were cracked - new EGR/no problems.

    may not be your problem, but check the codes!
     
    Itsfrom Click, Jul 19, 2007
    #8
  9. fredsmythson

    fredsmythson Guest

    Thanks for everyone's help!... While the car was in the auto shop the
    second time they replaced the coil pack, crank sensor, temperature
    sending unit and water outlet. And to my surprise they charged me an
    additional $329. "It runs fine now," the chief mechanic said.

    I drove away from the shop and still noticed that the engine ran a bit
    rough at idle in drive. Also, there was still a rattle in the dash
    board at idle in drive. I drove the car about 10 miles towards my home
    and I arrived at a stop light. Yes, the same thing happened - the car
    suddenly stalled. I started it back up and arrived back home... The
    next day I took the car for a thorough test drive. Same situation,
    engine was running a bit rough at idle in drive. I drove the car on
    the freeway and in the city. After 10 miles, again the engine stalled
    at a stop light. I then arrived at a second stop light - the engine
    suddenly stalled again. This time the engine would barely start and it
    was missing badly. The "check engine" light was also flashing. The car
    was ready to stall again, but I pulled into a residential
    neighborhood, parked and turned off the engine. I waited a few minutes
    and tried to start the car again, but it would not start. I called the
    auto shop again to send a tow truck.

    It kind of sounds like they are randomly changing parts at my expense
    to solve this problem. I wonder what they will say next and how much
    they will charge me again. I'm about ready to take the car back and
    then try to fix it myself trying everyone's repair suggestions. These
    rental car charges are killing me and after $3500 in engine
    replacement/repair bills, I still don't have a running car... Hmmmm...
     
    fredsmythson, Jul 20, 2007
    #9
  10. fredsmythson

    GrtArtiste Guest

    Years ago I had a similar stalling problem on an '82 Aries K-car.Lost
    a huge chunk of $ trying to figure it out but eventually the answer
    was....a bad catalytic converter. Something had broken loose inside
    there and would periodically obstruct the exhaust flow. After engine
    shutdown the exhaust pressure would dissipate and could restart. Then
    it would run until the next time it blocked itself...sometime minutes
    later, sometimes days later.
     
    GrtArtiste, Jul 21, 2007
    #10
  11. fredsmythson

    philthy Guest

    the customer is having a stall issue why does pulling off the throttle body
    have anything to do with the stalling??
    also based on the more info posted i would suspect a mistimed timing belt/cam
    gear setup on camshaft and again check the egr operation and related tubes that
    bolt directly to the bac of the intake manifolld
     
    philthy, Jul 22, 2007
    #11
  12. fredsmythson

    maxpower Guest

    Because you said the egr gasket will make it stall, it wont, any vacuum leak
    on the vehicle will make the engine rev to a higher RPM and not stall. It is
    not a carbureted engine. I simply said you could pull the throttle body off
    this vehicle (running) and it wouldn't stall. you could pull the EGR off
    this vehicle and it wouldn't stall while running.
     
    maxpower, Jul 22, 2007
    #12
  13. fredsmythson

    Steve Guest

    Really? With the throttle position sensor reading "closed," but the
    actual throttle (effectively) open, I think you'll find that it falls
    flat on its face fairly often if there's a big vacuum leak. Especially
    transitioning to an idle from coasting. The MAP sensor will show high
    manifold pressure and that will allow it to compensate for small vacuum
    leaks fine, but if someone leaves the EGR tubes disconnected, that's an
    awful big vacuum leak to expect it to compensate.
     
    Steve, Jul 23, 2007
    #13
  14. fredsmythson

    L.G.R. Guest

    Check the MAP sensor connection. Not only check it but get a used one and
    change it. I saw by the past a faulty plug. There are 3 wires if I remember
    well, cut them about 6 inches long and solder the other one. That might be
    the problem. Another symptom is back fires sometimes when you step hard on
    the gaz pedal. Watch not to open your muffler with a big backfire. Good
    luck.
    L.G.R.
     
    L.G.R., Jul 23, 2007
    #14
  15. fredsmythson

    maxpower Guest

    If there's a big vacuum leak the complaint would be vehicle does not idle
    down, not a stalling problem..
     
    maxpower, Jul 23, 2007
    #15
  16. fredsmythson

    Steve Guest

    My experience on this type of engine control system is that vacuum leaks
    cause both "high idle" and stalling. The stalling results from the fact
    that the controller can't make a smooth transition from running to idle
    because its getting conflicting inputs from the MAP sensor and the
    throttle position sensor. Yeah, you can start it and it will idle
    (fast), but when you're driving it will stall about 3 of 4 times that
    you pull up to a stop.
     
    Steve, Jul 23, 2007
    #16
  17. fredsmythson

    maxpower Guest

    Not like a carburetor where the fuel is delivered at the intake. A vacuum
    leak in that system would cause a very lean condition and cause the vehicle
    to stall. Since a ported fuel injection system sprays the fuel directly into
    each cylinder a vacuum leak would not cause the engine to stall. Take a look
    at a drivability test book and look up stalling on a ported fuel injected
    vehicle and see if it mentions EGR. (excluding Chilton because they are
    useless)Take a mighty vac and apply vacuum to the EGR and see if it stalls.
     
    maxpower, Jul 23, 2007
    #17
  18. fredsmythson

    Steve Guest

    No one ever said it was "like a carburetor."
    It won't make it stall because of lean-out, but it CAN make it stall
    because the engine managment computer is now getting inputs (throttle
    position sensor says closed, MAP says high pressure) that don't match
    up. The transition between operating under load where the extra air flow
    is trivial, and operating at idle where the extra airflow is the
    dominant factor is no longer smooth, and so there is a high probability
    of a stall under that condition.
    OK, let's be clear:

    1) I'm not talking THEORY, I'm talking about what I've OBSERVED in this
    very engine/controller combo.

    2) The question wasn't about "EGR" in general, ie. driveability issues
    with a sticky EGR valve or clogged EGR tubes. It was about a good-sized
    vacuum leak that results if the engine changer left the EGR tube
    DISCONNECTED.
     
    Steve, Jul 23, 2007
    #18
  19. fredsmythson

    maxpower Guest

    Steve I was replying to dirty when he said a gasket leak at the EGR tube
    would cause it to stall and I said Not true.
     
    maxpower, Jul 24, 2007
    #19
  20. fredsmythson

    fredsmythson Guest

    UPDATE: After the car was at the shop for six days on the third repair
    attempt, the chief mechanic called me and said, "It runs fine now, but
    it has an engine code. We replaced the crank sensor again. When can
    you pick it up?" Engine code? I thought they were going to finally fix
    this car. When I arrived at the auto shop they didn't charge me for
    the repair this time. I wanted to talk with the chief mechanic about
    this situation, but he was not there when I arrived at the shop. The
    guy at the service desk gave me my keys. Then another mechanic hooked
    up a code reader under the dash of the car and wrote down some letters
    and numbers on a piece a paper. He gave me the piece of paper and he
    said, "Thank you. Have a nice day." The paper showed the following
    error code:

    PO441-EVAP control sys purge flow falt

    I wasn't sure what to do. Did they want me to go to another mechanic?
    Or did they want me to try and fix the problem myself? I guess they
    finally gave up on trying to repair the car and the rebuilt engine
    replacement was unsuccessful. But, they said nothing about a refund...
    I started the car and the engine was now running very rough and the
    "check engine" light was on. I decided to just have the car towed back
    home.

    Now the fun begins... Calling the credit card companies, charge backs,
    rental car charge claims, consumer agencies, small claims court,
    etc... Thanks again for everyone's help. Maybe I'll have time next
    month to work on the car myself...
     
    fredsmythson, Jul 24, 2007
    #20
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