1996 Dodge Grand Caravan won't start or barely runs

Discussion in 'General Motoring' started by george.jones, Feb 13, 2006.

  1. george.jones

    george.jones Guest

    My 1996 Grand Caravan (3.3L) stalled last week at a light. It does that
    often, but this time it was difficult to get it restarted. It finally
    started and off I went. About a mile later, it stalled again, this time
    it wouldn't restart. I left the van and came back to it periodically to
    try to get it started again, but with no luck. I got it towed home over
    the weekend and went to try to start it. It took about 20 minutes (and
    a constant jump from my wife's Quest), but I finally managed to get it
    to start, but it would only idle at about 500RPM and would stay running
    for about a minute on average, with the longest being about 5 minutes.
    If I even so much as breathe on the accellerator, the car dies and I
    have to start it again.

    My first thought was the fuel pump's dead, but getting the car to run
    (barely) all but ruled it out. I thought that maybe the filter needs to
    be changed, which could be the case seeing as how it's never been
    changed since I got the van (90K miles, it now has 126K). Someone
    suggested the EGR or fuel pressure regulator. Any thoughts on what this
    could be? I have no problems doing the work myself (I've replaced the
    water pump, front and passenger side motor mounts, and several hoses)
    so I kinda just need to be led in the right direction and I'll take it
    from there.
     
    george.jones, Feb 13, 2006
    #1
  2. george.jones

    Bob Shuman Guest

    I'm not sure from your description what the problem is with your van not
    starting, but the fact that it idled rough and then died while idling at a
    stop light tells me it probably needed a good and thorough throttle body
    cleaning.

    Before doing anything, you should check to see if there are any stored
    engine diagnostic codes to help point you to a possible cause.

    On the fuel filter, just replace it as it is long overdue and could be
    causing fuel starvation or already caused permanent damage to the fuel pump.
    Also add a bottle of good fuel injector cleaner, like DuPont Techron, to
    the gas tank too since your injectors could be badly clogged from the old
    filter as well.

    Also, you do not say when your 3.3 was last properly tuned. Symptoms you
    describe could be related to fouled plugs or bad ignition wires.

    Bottom line is that I'd recommend you start with these above simple actions
    first so that you know where you stand. It might be the fuel pump has gone
    bad. If so, then a pressure test on the fuel rail will reveal this to be
    the case.

    Bob
     
    Bob Shuman, Feb 13, 2006
    #2
  3. george.jones

    george.jones Guest

    I haven't given it a tune up at all. I did buy new plugs, air filter,
    and oil filter the day before this happened figuring that I had put it
    off long enough. I'll grab wires today and see if this helps at all.

    BTW, how do I clean the throttle body?
     
    george.jones, Feb 13, 2006
    #3
  4. george.jones

    Steve Guest

    I think it probably IS the fuel pump. They don't always fail completely,
    and may continue to try to pump. Go down to Autozone, or equivalent, and
    rent or borrow a fuel pump pressure gauge. Hook up at the fuel rail and
    monitor the pressure as you try to start the vehicle. The fuel pump
    should run the first 2 seconds when the key goes to "on" and give you
    approx. 45psi. Then when the engine starts (if it does) it should
    continue to give a steady 45 - 48psi.
    My bet is that your not getting much if any volume or pressure.
     
    Steve, Feb 14, 2006
    #4
  5. george.jones

    uccoskun Guest

    I had a similar problem but mine is old spark plug wires. the one
    between the distributor and the ignition coil was bad.

    you can eliminate the fule problem by spraying carb cleaner in tothe
    intake and see if it runs that way. ifnot you have a spark problem...
     
    uccoskun, Feb 17, 2006
    #5
  6. george.jones

    Tim Guest

    I had the same thing happen to my 1996 -- it would stall and then after
    wating awhile run just fine. It was the fuel pump.

    Tim
     
    Tim, Mar 2, 2006
    #6
  7. george.jones

    NewMan Guest

    Just out of curiousity, it is my understanding that the fuel pump is
    actually in the fuel tank. Does the design allow for the pump itself
    to be replaced? or are you stuck replacing the tank/pump as an
    assembly? What were the approximate costs? (I have a 94 GC w/3.3l)
     
    NewMan, Mar 2, 2006
    #7
  8. yes

    or are you stuck replacing the tank/pump as an
    I think pumps are around $100-200. For most people the
    labor is the expensive part. Hopefully your fuel tank is nearly
    empty.

    For the future, note that the fuel pump is cooled by gasoline.
    If you make a point of refilling your gas tank when the level
    hits the 1/4 mark instead of letting it draw all the way down,
    the fuel pump will last a lot longer.

    Ted

    that depends if your going to do the work or not.

    Ted
     
    Ted Mittelstaedt, Mar 3, 2006
    #8
  9. george.jones

    Bill Putney Guest

    I believe that to be a myth. The overwhelmingly greatest amount of
    cooling is from the continual flow of the fuel *thru* the pump (bathes
    the armature, commutator, brushes, bearings/bushingds, etc.). The
    cooling effect of mostly stagnant fuel around the envelope of the pump
    (or its absence) is going to have little effect on those ciritical
    internal parts. There might be some small thermal effect on the magnets.

    Bill Putney
    (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
    address with the letter 'x')
     
    Bill Putney, Mar 3, 2006
    #9
  10. george.jones

    NewMan Guest

    Myth or not, I HATE IT when my tank gets to less than 1/2 a tank. When
    I was a child, my mom had a Volkswagen Square Back. The gas gauge on
    this car was NOT linear, it was exponential! So it looked like it was
    "full" for a long time. THEN, the needle would drop like a rock! Worse
    than that, there was no "E" for Emplty, there was an "R" and a little
    warning flag to signify "RESERVE". You could travel around 40 miles on
    the "Reserve". The problem is that mom would jump into the car day
    after day and say "Oh, I'm on reserve, no problem!". We would often
    run out of gas and get stuck. Henceforth I have an aversion to letting
    my tank get "low". I always feel like a car runs better on a full tank
    as well (personal superstition ;).

    As well, I find that the gas gauge on my GC does pretty mych the same
    thing. It will stay "full" for a long time. But once is starts to
    drop, it drops very quickly. So I avoid any problems and just fill up
    before it gets below 1/2 - unless I am on a long trip on a freeway.
    Then I will look for a fill as I cross 1/4.
     
    NewMan, Mar 3, 2006
    #10
  11. That could be true, but one other thing that might be an issue is if the
    pump
    is fully submerged, it's fully primed when it starts. If it's not submerged
    or
    partly submerged, with just the pickup tube in the fuel, then when the
    engine
    is started the pump has no fuel in the internal parts and pumps air for a
    second or so. Whether this introduces significant wear I don't know, I've
    never had an in-tank fuel pump fail and so have never taken one apart to
    see what part does the failing.

    Ted
     
    Ted Mittelstaedt, Mar 4, 2006
    #11
  12. What does the failing is usually the brushes wear out. An easy way to tell
    the condition of the pump if you have the tools is to view the current draw
    pattern on an oscilloscope. If the pattern is a smooth ripple from the
    brushes crossing the comutator segment gaps all is usually OK. If you see
    regular current spikes then there is something shorting two adjacent bars
    together and if you see either random or regular dips or dropouts the
    brushes are almost worn out and all it takes is for the rotor to stop at a
    spot where they lose contact when you shut off the engine to leave you
    stranded. Note that when the brushes are no longer making constant contact
    that the pump motor will also slow down reducing the available volume of
    fuel for hard accelleration etc.
     
    Daniel Armstrong, Mar 9, 2006
    #12
  13. george.jones

    george.jones Guest

    According to a few repair shops, the problem was the fuel pump. They
    all wanted $500+ to replace it with the most expensive being $585 to
    replace the pump and filter. I did the job myself with hand tools and a
    couple of jacks. $129 for the pump, $19 for the filter. The biggest
    problem with doing it was putting the gas tank, with about 5 gallons of
    fuel in it, back into place. The actual job of lowering the tank,
    disconnecting all of the hoses, and getting the pump out wasn't that
    bad. I started at 8am and had that part done by 11am. The hard part was
    putting it back up with the tools I had.

    If I had the proper tools, and empty tank, and a lift, this would have
    been a 2 hour job. I have to wonder what the hell the shops were going
    to charge me for.
     
    george.jones, Mar 21, 2006
    #13
  14. george.jones

    maxpower Guest

    Maybe they were going to charge you that because they have to pay for those
    proper tools!!!!

    Glenn Beasley
    Chrysler Tech
     
    maxpower, Mar 21, 2006
    #14
  15. george.jones

    Matt Whiting Guest

    Do you think they get those proper tools for free?

    Matt
     
    Matt Whiting, Mar 21, 2006
    #15
  16. george.jones

    george.jones Guest

    The only proper tool they would have had was a hydraulic lift (and
    possibly a strap wrench). Two of the shops even told me that they would
    use a hammer and chisel to get the lock nut over the pump off.

    Oh, and a mechanical siphon to get the gas out of my tank.

    Other than that, everything unbolts with simple sockets. With labor
    running at about $50-$60 and hour, a two hour job should have run me a
    maximum of $120, not $300+.
     
    george.jones, Mar 23, 2006
    #16
  17. george.jones

    Bill Putney Guest

    No - there is a check valve in line with the pump - often built into the
    pump itself. That keeps a column of fluid in the system - pump doesn't
    run dry. Now - sometimes, if a car is hard to start in the morning
    (i.e., typically takes two tries to start it), it's either because one
    or more injectors are leaky (emptying out the fuel rail), or the check
    valve at the pump is leaky - allowing the initial run-dry situation that
    you mention. the two starts allows the intial second or so of pump run
    time to re-fill/pressurize the system, and the engine starts on the 2nd
    or 3rd try.

    Bill Putney
    (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
    address with the letter 'x')
     
    Bill Putney, Mar 26, 2006
    #17
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