1987 Plymouth Reliant 2.5L won't start (early model)

I'm reaching out to those Chrysler/Plymouth gurus out there for help.
I'm almost done with this vehicle, despite replacing the head gasket
and exhaust system recently. Here's what has happened -

1 - Started the car to leave the office, it stalled out and wouldn't
restart. I have ample spark and fuel delivery.

2 - So far I have replaced: plugs, wires, ignition coil, MAP sensor,
ECM (power module located along driver-side fender wall behind the
battery), fuel filter, distributor cap, rotor and ignition pickup (Hall
Effect sensor).

3 - The car turns over fine, gets gas into the EFI throttle body
(single fuel injector) and spark is ample on each plug/wire, it just
won't "catch".

I've checked the error codes via the ignition switch 'on-off-on-off-on'
sequence, and all I get is '12 55'. If I'v read the Chilton's manual
correctly, a code 12 is supposed to be "transaxle unlock relay", which
for the life in me I have never heard of, unless they're referencing a
neutral safety switch. If anyone can tell me if I've read the code
incorrectly I'd sure like to know. I thought the code 12 was the
opening sequence for any/all codes off the ignition switch method, but
maybe I'm wrong?

I've just ordered a new Logic Module, and am waiting for it to arrive
(today/tomorrow), so keeping my fingers crossed. If this doesn't work,
I am at a loss to fix this car that up until now has been so good to
us.

Does anyoe have any ideas what else may be the culprit here??

Thanks to all of you in advance!

 

If you had ample fuel and ignition, why did you replace all these
parts? It's a whole lot cheaper and less frustrating to figure out
what's wrong first, and then only replace what you need to.

First off, toss the Chilton's and get a real factory service manual.
Quite a few people claim they can't afford the FSM; the way you're
throwing money at this problem, you can certainly pay for the FSM.

I've never seen documentation saying that 12 is the "start of codes",
but Dan Stern (who knows a whole lot more about this than me) asserts
this is the case, and I've verified it on a couple of cars. However
(Dan correct me if I'm wrong!), I believe if you only see 12 and 55,
it means "Memory standby power recently lost" (this is the translation
I find in tables), which has a variety of possible causes, most of
them related to either a bad connection someplace.

The sad thing is, it's entirely possible this will "fix" it -- not
because there was anything wrong with the old one, but because
installing the new one will jostle the wires and reseat the
connectors.

 

12 means the battery was recently disconnected. 55 is end of codes. As to
starting, this requires, fuel, spark, and compression. You have checked two
of the three. I'd look at the timing belt as I believe the 2.5L has one.
Did you get it back on correctly and were all the timing marks aligned. If
not the timing belt, then look at the head gasket work you did, although it
is hard to imagine it being bad enough not to start.

Bob

 

Thanks for your input, gentlemen. Yes, the timing belt was replaced &
timing was set correctly back in December, and the car's been running
like a dream ever since. I also have checked compression, and there's
no problem there. I have pulled the timing cover and verified the
position of the rotor in the distributor, so it looks like the belt has
not jumped/skipped any teeth.

I can honestly tell you once I get this car out of my driveway, I will
be ordering up the service manual for it and chucking my Chilton's
guide away once and for all. Actually I may go with the AllData
CD-based manual for this model, unless that's not a good idea.

 

When you say "pulled the timing cover" do you mean you actually VERIFIED
that both the cam and the auxiliary shaft (which drives the distributor)
are perfectly timed with the crank, according to the marks? If not, or
if you only checked one shaft or the other, don't be sure it didn't skip
a tooth.

also, rather than just seeing if the rotor points generally in the right
direction, you should use a timing light.

My hunch is a timing belt issue because if you have spark and fuel its
NOT the wiring or the computer. Given that the timing belt was recently
replaced, chances are very good that it wasn't quite tensioned properly
and/or has stretched and jumped time.

 

I actually checked the timing marks and looked at the rotor location to
verify timing. As the car currently doesn't start, I have no way of
putting a timing light on it at the moment to check the timing. Unless
you suggest that I use the timing light while attempting to crank the
engine over? Other than that, the timing appears to be dead-on, and the
belt is snug, so there's plenty of tension there.

I am replacing the logic module at this point because it is the
original one, and is dated Sept of 1986, as was the power module. I
know several others have claimed that new (re-manufactured) power
modules can sometimes also be bad, but I'm hoping/guessing that my
replacement is OK. Now if the logic module checks out OK, I will let
you all know.

Thanks for all your responses!

 

Back to basics. if you have fuel. spark and compression it should start, but
do you know if all these are in proper time? Have you checked the timing
belt for proper settings?

 

The code 55 means it is the end of the sequence, When you disconnect the
battery you will get a code 11 and 12 and once it is started the code 11
should go away. the code 12 will go away after about 15 key cycles, that
code is a normal fault if the battery was disconnected

Glenn Beasley
Chrysler Tech

 

The FSM will tell you how to set the "coarse" ignition timing. I forget
exactly how it works on the two-five, but you have to be able to see the
camshaft (top) sprocket and line up one or two holes in it with something
behind the sprocket. There are some other steps involved too. Then you get
out the timing light.

I personally would not open the package of whatever you just ordered, so you
can show the shop it was never used when you go to return it.

You could search E-bay for an FSM. I got one on CD for a 2001 Ford e-series
van for $5 a few years ago.

 

Ah, wasn't thinking before: did you run codes before you started
randomly replacing parts, or do you only know the 12 is there after
doing all that? If the latter, then it's likely meaningless in any
case since I assume you disconnected the battery to replace the power
module.

 

No, the suggestion was to check timing marks on the three sprockets.
He was talking about valve timing, not ignition timing.

You're replacing the logic module for no better reason than its
age????

 

Hey the guy has money, what can you say.

 

Exactly. Works great!

 

Here is an explanation on how to check the valve timing.. (the easy way)
courtesy of turbovan.net

http://www.turbovan.net/timing.htm

 

Okay, I have an '87 Reliant with a 2.5.

The last two times it suddenly didn't want to start, after having run
perfectly the previous day, it was the MAP sensor. You may or may not
get MAP sensor error codes when the sensor fails. However, what
happens is that the car almost wants to start, but if it does start it
dies right away.

Try disconnecting the electrical lead to the MAP sensor to see if the
problem is the MAP sensor and/or its wiring. The '87 2.5 will not
gladly want to start cold with the MAP sensor disconnected (especially
if it's really cold), but it will start and it will run (with the
Power Loss light lit, and a code 14 if I remember correctly). I drove
for an hour to my favourite you-pick junkyard with the bad MAP sensor
disconnected like this, and collected five MAP sensors from junked
cars, because the MAP sensor Chrysler is now selling for $85 lasted me
less than a year. (The internal design has changed a LOT between the
original style MAP sensors, and the current Chrysler offering. I
guess not for the better.)

You may also have flooded the engine by now. To clear flooding, floor
the gas pedal while cranking. This is the procedure specified in the
owner's manual, and it does work.

Replacing the cap, wires, plugs, fuel filter is reasonable
maintenance, although none of these will cause a good-running car to
suddenly not run at all. The coil and power module almost certainly
didn't need to be replaced. The Hall effect sensor replacement gives
you your old one as a spare, I guess.

So you can rule out all sorts of things like bad logic or power
module, bad Hall effect sensor, bad wiring to the fuel injector.

No. On my '87 a code 12 is "battery recently disconnected". It goes
away after some driving and restarts. And 55 is the standard
end-of-codes. Because you have disconnected the computer, any other
codes it may have detected are gone. However, this does prove that
the distributor is working fine--otherwise you would have a code 11 as
well.

Pointless expense at this point. There is no reason to suspect the
logic module. I got a spare power and logic module from the junkyard
when some bad wiring made the entire EFI system nonfunctional. But of
course, now I have TWO good power and logic modules....

I suspect that the wiring is bad somewhere. With the exact symptoms,
I'd say that the MAP sensor wiring is the first that should be
examined. I wonder what effect a bad throttle position signal might
have.

I expect that your EFI computers are trying to do their best with bad
data, but they are not smart enough to figure out exactly what is bad,
and how. (When the MAP sensor is actually disconnected, the logic
module immediately figures that it must run without a MAP signal,
rather than getting fooled by a false signal.)

You could recheck your timing belt, but I see no good reason for it to
jump a tooth or two overnight.

 

If the cam gear is out, the crank and distributor could still be set , you
would be wasting your time trying to check with a timing lite.

Take the cover off the cam sproket and make sure all 3 are lined up!!

 

Agreed. I said check the spark timing after checking all 3 shafts.

 

My bad, damn it sucks to get old,

 

I have the 1987 FSM as I once owned a 1987 Plymouth Reliant. I don't care
if I sell them or not, but they are a set of three and in perfect
condition.
If you are interested I will sell them for $30 plus shipping. Give me a
good email if interested.
I need a set for a 94 Acclaim and the guy wants $40 dollars plus shipping
and I can't get him on the phone to verify the condition.

 

12 means "Start of codes" _when you are reading the codes via the MIL on
the dashboard_ using the key on-off-on-off-on method.

With some computer calibrations, yes.
With others, it means "Start of codes, end of codes".